Speardiver C100 vs Deep Apnea 100 vs Moana Fins

Good thread, I am very curious to hear divers opinions.

I have Speardicver 90 with Omer foot pockets and I have Moanas….medium I believe, with Pathos foot pockets.

For our diving here, I prefer the stiffness of the Moanas. My SD 90s are a bit soft for my taste but I would guess Dan's stiff blades would be more like the Moanas.

The Omer foot pocket is softer and overall, to me anyway, a bit more comfortable. I do get a little blister on my heel if I don't us thick socks though.
The Pathos pockets are a bit tight on the top of my foot. But with they thinner tendons, JD, the maker of the Moanas, said they're the best pocket for his blades so I went with his recommendation.

The top of my toes got blisters at first. But my son and I heated them in almost boiling water and stretched them a bit while hot on our feet (with socks on)
You can definitely see a right and left fin with mine now based on foot shape. But, as Dan told me, they will try and revert back to their original shape if left in the sun. We keep them shaded and they're held the shape for months now.

I think it's just a lot of personal choice. If I'm shallow reef hunting and being sneaky, I like the SDs. If I'm moving in current and doing deeper dives, I can get up and down faster with the Moanas. But again, I haven't tried the stiffer SDs.
Hope this helps.

When you see me post in this thread you can guess which fins I'm going to recommend. But I'll back up my opinion with information that should make sense to a person with not much experience in carbon fins.

For those who may not know, I'm the owner of Speardiver brand gear, manufacturer of Speardiver carbon fin blades.

I've used the following carbon blades and foot pockets in different combinations:
Pathos foot pockets
Beuchat foot pockets
Speardiver carbon blades
Deep Apnea carbon blades

I have not used Moana carbon blades. My comments on them are based on the blade action I see in the Moana promotional video, other diver's reviews that confirmed my observations, and my experience with the carbon fabric used by Moana.

First the foot pockets.

Pathos
After my extensive experience with Pathos foot pockets (I was the first to bring them to the US and make them available through FreediveStore.com starting in 2009) I've come to the conclusion that they're not good foot pockets. The Pathos foot pockets are light because they're made of synthetic rubber, and there's significantly less material in them than with other more robust foot pockets. Consequently the Pathos foot pocket tendons do not offer enough support for carbon blades. The fin ends up flexing too much in the area immediately past the foot pocket toe plate, resulting in less power/propulsion, and at worst (too often) carbon blades breaking at that spot.

It appears that with Pathos' minimum material design, it's impossible to find a middle ground where the foot pocket tendons have the stiffness to offer the carbon blade adequate support, but remain flexible so as to not negatively affect the blade flex pattern (more mass/material is needed to achieve this).

I'll attempt to describe what it feels like using carbon blades with Pathos foot pockets. If the carbon blades are medium stiffness, as long as the fin stroke can be light, like in flat water no current conditions, or going up and down with not much weight on, the fin will perform fine. But the moment you need to power up, such as when fighting a big fish, going against current, or simply trying to go faster, the fins are immediately overpowered and you feel like you're kicking but not advancing.

If to compensate for this you switch to a blade that on its own is stiff enough to not be overpowered, you'll feel more pressure on the top of your foot about 2" up from the toes. It's as if the foot pocket is too small to dissipate the force of the fin stroke over your entire foot, and the blade has too much leverage on the foot resulting in fatigue.

Some new carbon fin blades manufacturers continue to opt for the least amount of work assembling fins (with Pathos foot pockets the blades are easily glued right in and don't require rails to be installed on the blade), and the easy sell aspect of the Pathos foot pockets, divers seeing a such a light fin for the first time are quickly impressed into buying it. Carbon blades are lighter than fiberglass and plastic, but the Pathos foot pockets are so much lighter than all other foot pockets, that's the difference in weight you perceive when you hold this fin in your hands. Some carbon fin blades manufacturers who don't have our experience, are not yet aware of the weakness with the Pathos foot pockets. Others who know of the problem try to address it by making their blades stiffer, this approach results in a cumbersome fin. Instead I choose to no longer recommend/offer the Pathos foot pockets, on their own or with carbon blades.

For those who insist on choosing Pathos, fit wise they are suitable for a wide foot, but are quite flat on the top, resulting in most of the pressure of the fin stroke being felt about 2" above the toes. Pathos foot pockets are not suitable for divers with a high instep, you will not get your foot in the pocket. Because of the material (or lack of) the Pathos foot pockets tend to split on the sides. This happens much quicker, 1 season of repetitive diving, if used in cold water.

Beuchat foot pockets
The Beuchat are nice foot pockets, they have moderate stiffness tendons for good blade support, a stiff sole for good power transfer to the blade, and a soft comfortable pocket. From my experience fitting divers, they are best suited for a narrow foot. This pretty much precludes anyone with an average shaped foot from getting them in the correct length. Meaning, to fit a normal foot you'll have to get a longer size Beuchat foot pocket, so your toes will end about 1" before the end of the toe plate. This changes where the pressure from the fin stroke will be felt to right above your toes, creating fatigue.

The Beuchat foot pockets are very difficult to install blades into. The T slot inside the tendons is extremely small, and there are no pre-made rails that will fit it so conventional rubber blade rails must be reduced by hand until they fit inside the tendons. Additionally the tendon channels simply refuse to open to accept the rails. I've done this installation a few times and it's a serious PITA. I therefor must charge an additional fee for installing any blades in Beuchat foot pockets. I highly doubt Moana and for sure not Sleep Apnea will be able to do it. The plastic like material of the Beuchat foot pocket tendons is slippery and Cyanoacrylate glue does not bond to it carbon blades, so it's impossible to glue the blades in properly.

I haven't looked at the Sleep apnea site in a while.. Now the blades are offered in Beuchat foot pockets only. Up until recently it was Pathos foot pockets. Most likely he's figured out what I've been saying for over 2 years now; that the Pathos are not good foot pockets. It would be hard not to realize this having broken blades come back for warranty. I was truly surprised to see the blades offered in Beuchat foot pockets, knowing the amount of work it takes me to do the installation. So I sent him an inquiry:

Hello,

On your website it says your fins come in Beuchat foot pockets. Can the blades be taken out of the Beuchat foot pockets or are they glued in? Thanks.
______________

They are glue in, it can't be removed after installation.

Thanks.

Carlos Reyes.
Deep Apnea, LLC


As you can see he bypassed the installation by gluing the blades in. I know for a fact Cyanoacrylate glue doesn't bond with the plastic material of the Beuchat foot pockets. I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of other glues for this application, but wouldn't be adverse to look into it because of how difficult it is to make this installation with rails. Still the Beuchat foot pockets were not designed for a glue in installation. And you better be really sure about the fit because there will be no changing sizes or changing to other foot pockets, unless you're willing to destroy the Beuchat foot pocket the blade came with, and put in some work removing residue and prepping the blade again.

I've used beuchat, omer and pathos pockets. I currently use pathos and I will never go back to any other brand. Very comfortable and great fit. I've had mine for years and they are still in great condition even after sitting in the sun for long periods of time.

I'm going to come into this discussion from a different angle on carbon blades, and one that I never see being discussed: What sounds and frequency's are being transmitted into the sea water hunting arena?

Being a vintage diver that has traveled and dove with some world champion competors that used cutting edge gear over the last thirty years, I am not new to using Carbon fins...the first over 25 years ago. Cost and availability was never a issue as I had French contacts . What kept me out of Carbons while hunting was this.... Sounds/low frequency oscillations that scare one of my target fish, the great hearing.... White Sea Bass.

Over the years I been given Carbon fins to test and keep if I wanted, if I wrote the company a review. Most fins were passed on or used my me for just pool swimming.

Even when I purchased Dan's Carbon fins a few years ago I was skeptical about quite power delivery with my strong kick cycle style at times. To cut to the chase their still in my hunting gear bag and yes I have a underwater mic.

Now I can tell you that big blue Horse Eye Jack, Grey Reef, and Silver Tip Shark love the low frequency sounds in French Poly.....but I don't hunt these. I also don't like them blasting up to my 6 looking for a wounded fish.

I'm not saying Mona's make noise as I never worn them and I'm not going to commit that kind of money to find out when I have a winner in the Speardiver med C-90's for my kick style in current and deep dives, plus they take a beating in the H.Dessault pockets I hammer on the shore dives locally.

Cheers, Don

It's a shame the pathos footpockets have the issues Dan has mentioned. Luckily I've never experienced any issue with them. I absolutely love my blade/footpocket combination which I bought from Dan back when he carried the pathos. I really enjoy how light the fins are. I only dive a handful of times per year so my experience with such pockets my not be an accurate representation of the pathos true performance or dependability. There was a thread by Dan where he compared the footpockets side by side including their weight, it may be outdated but you should check it out anyways, it has tons of great information. In my opinion you should try as many footpockets as possible, like they said before: what fits you comfortably may be completely different from what fits others.

Quote from ausspearo

Thank you for your perspective Don Paul. Coming from someone with as much experience as yourself, it definitely means a lot that you'd take the time to share that knowledge. Does that mean before you settled on the C90s, your fin of choice was plastic?

I wore a ton of plastic starting with Cressi Gara, H.Dessault Spora Sub orange blade, backdoor Beuchant competition blades and pockets, JB Esclapez metallic particulate Purple
(a crazy stiff as a board fin) much stiffer then the black or soft blue...these fins were nuts to kick up current, but me and a a guy (Mark Barville) were the only ones to stay with them.
Then there was Peppo Biscarini long blades, Picasso protype Carbon/Haplon. these fins had a
2''U-section cut from the center with haplon rubber glued to the blade forming a flexible channel. Then a pair of mark 1 C-4 stiff blade mustangs that I parked once I started kicking Dan's fins. The one thing that I can say for Dan is: he is relentless in going forward with blade performance, like rust he never sleeps.;) I am already looking forward to see and test what will come with time....

Cheers, Don

I have used Speardiver fins for a while. The deep apnea fins I used only once. Dan is my friend as well as Carlos and I wouldn't say anything I wouldn't say to either one of them. I like the Speardiver fins, and I don't see a reason to change. But the one time I found myself without fins on the boat I used a pair of Deep Apnea Alan brought and I felt very uncomfortable with them. I'm not very demanding when it comes to gear, but I can't say I liked the way deep apnea felt on my feet. They can be the best out there but still I felt I had to kick harder without getting where I wanted. Maybe it's just me or it's because I'm used to Speardiver fins. The fact is I like the Speardiver better.

Quote from ausspearo

Hey guys,

I just sold my Beuchat Mundial Carbones and am looking for an upgrade. The fins I'm currently interested in are:

Speardiver C100 Medium (Beuchat Footpockets)
Deep Apnea 100 Soft (Beuchat Footpockets)
Moana Soft Hybrids (Pathos Footpockets)

I know the Beuchat footpockets very well but am unsure about the fit of the Pathos. I will try and find a pair of those footpockets to try next week. Can anyone share their experiences with any of these 3 fins? Has anyone used 2 or even all 3 of them? I heard the Moana mediums are very stiff. Any information would be appreciated.

Cheers,
David

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You need to buy all three configurations and formulate your own opinion.:thumbsup2:

I have owned Moana CF MED fins in Pathos pockets and thought they were the most powerful fins I have put on..EVER. They were very springy and extremely efficient when going up and down, made 75ft feel like 45ft after not even touching the water for 18months in chicago. So if you need to go deep without current I believe they are AWESOME!! However I actually use my fins on the surface and surface swimming all day spearfishing with them was a NIGHTMARE! I had a pair of pursuit c90s a while back that I sold when I joined the Navy, they were medium/soft in beuchat fps and I would feel quite comfortable swimming for over 12 hours a day doing 70+ all day in current with those bad boys. I didn't get much initial push from them but I would get a rhythm going and move along with ZERO effort. My technique with the fins progressed to where I could race anyone with the stiffer fins and stay with them or pass them without tiring. I may just go back to the c90s I hope they haven't changed since they first came out.
PS: I have used a few types of fins to compare them to....(DiveR(MED), Beuchat Fibra, Beuchat Carbone, Pursuit C100(MED), Cressi2000HF, Cressi 3000HD, Spierre Pure Carbon(MED), Moana Carbon(MED)/FPs: CAPT NEMO, OMER STINGRAY, BEUCHAT MUNDIAL,OMER MILLENIUM, CRESSI GARA, MARES RAZOR, PATHOS.)

I'm tired of pointing out flaws in other guy's products, but it is what it is.

The sleep apnea fins I tried were Alan's, the same ones that Pantoja used. They were too heavy/cumbersome. I could feel it immediately after I put them on (which was in the water exchanging fins with Alan). I already posted my thoughts about the the longer Speardiver C100 blades vs. the conventional length C90; I find the longer fins less easy to handle in any case. But the sleep apnea fins went beyond that, Speardiver fins at that length don't feel so heavy. Pantoja thinks the same looks like. I also don't like the water channeling rails on them, this style rail reduces the blades effective surface area by a 1cm wide strip along each side.

I have to touch on the 100cm vs. 90cm fin length for a moment. For some guys the longer blades are very good going by what they say. I try to figure out the diving conditions and physical attributes that allow them to get better performance from the longer fins, and I posted my conclusions before. Suffice to say, for the kind of scrambling my diving partners and I do here out of Miami, the 90cm fins are better.
I see the latest trend of longer fins as a marketing gimmick, because my competitors Moana and sleep apnea offer blades exclusively at that length. While I acknowledge that some divers prefer the longer blades, like G.R. Tarr who's a very experienced diver and whose preference must be considered seriously (he's using Speardiver C100, check the vid below to see if your kicking style matches his), they are definitely not for everybody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYFQ2SlMXXg

To offer longer blades exclusively is to capitalize on the simpleton notion that longer must be better. If this were true, where does long end? why not even longer? Obviously there must come a point where longer becomes a disadvantage. I define the ideal fin length at 90cm, that's total length foot pocket and blade, hence Speardiver C90. But that doesn't mean that Speardiver C100 (100cm total length) fins are not better than the competition's, on the contrary they are lighter and just as quick at a softer stiffness.

What I consider a good carbon blade is one that maintains its characteristics of being fast, light and durable, in the softer stiffnesses. This is where you'll see a low quality blade, like a Leader/Nautilus fin, become sluggish in anything less than Medium stiffness and practically useless. Making the fin right, I can get the quick snap of the blade back to straight, without making the blade too thick and consequently too heavy. This depends on type of carbon fabric used, the epoxy, layup and other trade secrets.

My personal preference is softer blades. I find that just like Matt said, I can dive them all day and my ankles and knees don't get tired. And I can get just as much propulsion as guys do with stiffer fins by adjusting my kick. Stiff heavy fins are wasted energy, will decrease your bottom time, and control when you end diving for the day. That said, if someone prefers stiffer or longer fins, no problem, order Speardiver medium hard or even hard. They will be just as stiff as Moana or sleep apnea, but feel lighter and faster.

When I tried the sleep apnea fins I saw blades that got their speed from their thickness, which translated into a heavy fin. Additionally they were resin rich which contributed to the weight. Alan bought them about a year ago. According to sleep apnea website the fins are now new and improved. Nice to know that whoever bought fins previously got an inferior product? This is why it makes no sense to go with the latest fin on the market. Speardiver has been doing it since 2009 and the fins are stabilized, meaning we're making them as good as they can be. During this time I've experimented with many foot pockets and materials, to try and improve blade performance in terms of quickness, lightness and durability, as well as eye appeal. Things that no other fin manufacturer has done like using Texalium for blade material. Pathos foot pockets and carbon Kevlar fabric that some of my competitors are only getting into now, I experimented with long ago and dropped in favor of better performing materials and foot pockets.

At this point I want to address the latest marketing hype being used to sell carbon fins; Quadraxial (Sleep Apnea) and Omniflex (Moana).

Quote and image from Sleep apnea website:

Quote

Now Deep Apnea introduce a new Carbon Fiber Quadraxial Structure with 5 years warranty. What that means? Means that our fins has now fiber orientation in 0º, +60º, 90º, and -60º, that makes the fins more resistance to the torsion, more durable and more responsive. Before our fins had fibers in 0º and 90º.

The following excerpt is from Moana promotional video:

Quote

At first glance you'll notice they do look different than most fins out there. The primary feature that you'll notice looks different is the fabric pattern. This is not a 0 - 90 plain cloth weave like virtually all other fins. Instead you'll see about half the fiber weight in the 0 degree direction, and no fibers in the 90 degree direction, which normally leads to excessive weight, and an "access"??? to fatigue and crack along?? doing very little to help the properties of the fin.

You'll notice about half the fiber weight is on the bias, the inner taper layers are a different bias as well. So over all I call this my Omniflex, it distributes flexion and compression in about 10 different directions. The impact strength is about 5 times great than standard plain cloth, hopefully you'll get a much more durable fin.

I wanted to back up my take on this so I sent a question to Jon Soller of Soller Composites:

Hi Jon,

My competitors are advertising Quadraxial carbon as being used in their fins. Can you please clarify if such material truly exists? If yes, which of your carbon material matches the “Quadraxial carbon" description”?

Thanks,
Dan
_______________

Hi Dan,

A quad fabric as one fabric is not possible, but this can be done by a triaxial fabric and a UNI behind it, or a biaxial braided fabric and a woven fabric behind it. The use of the term Quadraxial is a marketing gimmick.

A biaxial and triaxial fabric are made on braiding machines and a 0/90 fabrics are made on a loom. Being a weaver ourselves, we can tell you it is not possible to make a 0/60/90/60 (quad) fabric on one machine.

For complex shapes and for quad fiber angles you are best using a biaxial braided sleeve cu in 1/2, and then a twill or 8HS behind it. If you go with a biaxial or triaxial fabric and a UNI behind it to get the quad angles, the biaxial or triaxial fabric will be static and will not conform well.

Best Regards,
Jon Soller
Soller Composites, LLC

While neither Sleep apnea nor Moana state outright that they're using "Quadraxial" or "Omniflex" carbon in the singular sense, they are implying it in their marketing. The truth is that at best they are achieving correct carbon blade characteristics through the layup of readily available carbon fabric.

I am absolutely certain that over 4 years of experimenting with carbon fabrics, we settled on the very best material for Speardiver fins. But I must concede that when it comes to eye appeal, a fresh pattern trumps old and reliable for a prospective buyer. When I first saw the Moana fins I liked the look, and wanted to offer at least some blades with that pattern. So I experimented with the same carbon fabric. The results were not favorable. Blades made with this material are significantly slower. To compensate and make the blade faster, more layers need to be added, which will result in a stiffer heavier blade. This is something I'm simply not willing to do, sacrifice performance for the sake of eye appeal.
See if you can tell the difference for yourself in the video. First is a Speardiver blade for comparison, notice how quickly it snaps back to straight and the POP! sound, and how it doesn't wobble back and worth but instead stays rigid. Carbon 1 is the Moana material (straight lines), out of 3 different straight lines patterns I tried it was the fastest, but still significantly slower than Speardiver carbon. For comparison purposes the blade was made in medium stiffness, note how much the blade is being bent/flexed before being released. You will not see that in a Moana promotional video, the blade is simply too stiff to flex this way. It has to be stiff to give it the speed which the carbon lacks in the first place. Carbon 2 in the vid is another straight line pattern that's even slower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za8cIKHms1c

Check out the subcraft blades with a set of pathos pockets. They were the "best" carbon fins in terms of response tested by a some of the "elites" of the sport here in the us their factory burnt down a while ago and the company finally has resumed production. I dive bleutecs these days in pathos pockets and I'm pretty happy. the pathos pockets are hands down the best pockets I've ever used, you can used a heat gun to custom mold them to your fins which is awesome. With my C100's I stuck em into pathos pockets and had pretty damn good results too, it voids the warranty but IDGAF if the blade response is better and the pockets fit me better.
So far the fins I have spent a lot of money on that were actually worth it were:
bleutecs
speardiver c100's
omer rekords
specialfins hybrid professionals
I have access to a pair of the new subcrafts too but I am not sure if I will try them or not as pathos is set to release fins next year that I will probably get to test out and im plenty happy with the bleutecs in the meantime. I think the fins I dove the deepest in and actually shot fish in were the specialfins in old blackteam pockets but that shit almost literally killed me.

Rubber foot pockets can't be molded with heat. Just think how un-rubber like the Pathos foot pocket must be if it can be molded, more like plastic.

It was hard to find the length of the Bleu tec blades, it's not stated anywhere on their website :crazy: I did find one shop listing it as; width: 19cm, length 79cm. This configuration is comparable to the Speardiver C90 width 21cm, length 78cm. You probably prefer the conventional length to the longer blades as I do.

Are these the Subcraft fins you were talking about? SpearAmerica.com; the best customer service I’ve ever had - Spearboard bubble blowers drama forum