Posts by Dan

Welcome to Speardiver. Thanks for sharing the video.

One week from Florida to Guam, not bad

Nice try kmo

Makoa, in the meanwhile if you could please simply measure the length of the two 18mm band sections of your 110cm roller.

Actually if Makoa is willing to lend a hand we can put this to rest. I believe he mentioned his roller is 110cm using an 18mm band. My 110cm pipe gun has 115cm of band stretch (from foremost muzzle hole to furthest tab). To get %300 elongation (115cm x 2 divided by 3) the bands end up being 77cm long. So to match Makoa's roller my conventional speargun will have two 18mm bands 77cm long.

But two 18mm bands on a pipe gun is pushing it because of recoil. Makoa said his roller gun doesn't feel overpowered, so I'm guessing his two band sections may be a little longer, say 85cm?

Another consideration is that the bands are not anchored all the way back on the bottom. In that case if the length of the cord tied to the trigger guard is about 10cm which will amount reduction 20cm in overall band stretch, so the bands on Makoa's roller may be shorter. This will put them right back at more or less 77cm. In essence a thicker band but reduced stretch (about %275) which brings recoil to a manageable point.

Quote from Wishihadgills

Dan I think grossetti and I have both described how a roller gun has potential to be more powerful in a shorter package.

There is no such potential, it's just an illusion. If you take the "single" band (in reality two separate bands) off the roller and put them side by side with the two bands from a conventional speargun of the same length, you'll see the bands are the same. I know now that you guys can't visualize it without getting a roller and taking off the bands to see for yourself, but I'm not going to go to the trouble of making a video of it. In reality while you can probably calculate the length of bands for a 100cm speargun based on %300 stretch, you probably haven't taken a moment to consider the length of the "single" band on a 100cm roller. Post back when you have the answer (I already know what it will be) and then explain to me how the same two bands can produce more power because they're threaded through a pulley instead of a hole in the muzzle.

And to help you get rid of the "latest and greatest technology" idea, the roller concept is about 50 years old. There's a reason why it's been dormant all these years. The resurgence is just a bunch of hype, and many manufacturers (myself excluded) jumped on the cash cow throwing fuel on the roller frenzy. I admit the roller is a cool concept and something new to play with and tweak. I don't think it's practical for most spearfishing applications but that can depend on personal preference. My main beef is with the false claim of more power in a shorter gun.

Spearguns of Don Rolstead have powerbands that go over rollers.

Perhaps it will help to shake the idea of a "single" band roller if you consider how it's anchored on the bottom of the gun. You must recognize there's nothing "single" about it. It's two bands with a total of 4 tied-in wishbones just like a two banded conventional speargun.

It's funny when I read some of the posts and realize what a mind job they've done with the roller concept. The mind just refuses to see clearly through it, it must at all cost defend the skewed logic, for what reason I can't fathom. How many legs does the elephant have? And more importantly will it run faster?

I'd say Steven knows where you're coming from Chase. I think he may have put in more spearfishing time in Broward county in the last 5 years than anyone I know of. I'll bet if you drop him off underwater anywhere on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd reef he'll know exactly where he's at before surfacing :@ You're just picking up where he left

OK chill out kids.

Wetsuit thickness choice will vary depending on an individual diver's tolerance to cold or warm water, and acclimation. Here's a rough guide for spearfishermen just getting into open cell wetsuits, looking to spend at least 2-3 hours in the water. Thermoclines (sharp drops in temperature between water layers) will affect wetsuit thickness choice. Keep in mind that these guidelines are for open cell wetsuits which are much warmer than double lined/zippered/scuba wetsuits. A 3mm open cell wetsuit will be a little warmer than a 5mm double lined suit. And much more comfortable to wear being more stretchy and having no interior lining to create friction against the body.

1. Rashguard - 80° F (26° C) and up
2. 1.5mm double lined suit Speardiver Reef 1.5mm Spearfishing Wetsuit - 77° F (25° C) to 80° F (26° C)
3. 3mm open cell suit Speardiver Reef Spearfishing Wetsuit - 71° F (22° C) to 77° F (25° C)
4. 5mm open cell suit Speardiver Pacific Spearfishing Wetsuit - 59° F (15° C) to 71° F (22° C)
5. 7mm open cell suit Speardiver Pacific Spearfishing Wetsuit - 45° F (7° C) to 59° F (15° C)
6. 9mm open cell suit - 33° F (1° C) to 45° F (7° C)

Xan, yes the roller's band accelerates the shaft right up to the muzzle. But the force with which it does so is the force of two single bands over the distance equal to the stock/barrel length. The two band conventional speargun accelerates the shaft over 2/3 that distance, but it does so with the force of 4 single bands. Combined with the fact that the bottom anchoring point on the roller doesn't utilize the full stock length for band stretch, will result in a conventional speargun actually having more power. Some of that power will be dissipated through recoil if the gun doesn't have the right mass, shaft/bands configuration, and other details like elevated bands and handle. But if these details are addressed correctly the roller over under band contraction should pose no significant advantage in terms of recoil over the conventional setup.

For grossetti and others who may be having difficulty visualizing why a "single" band roller is the same as a two band conventional speargun, I made this animation highlighting the bands with a red line. Clearer than this I can't make it. There still has been no proof of the claim that a roller has more power than an identical size conventional speargun. Only anecdotal observations echoing one another with a single recurring theme; no relation whatsoever to physics.

Makoa, I'm surprised you were under the impression that I never used a roller speargun. I gave you some good advice on building one (based on my experience) in another thread.

Please note I didn't post negative comments about roller spearguns in other's threads because I didn't want to be rude and/or derail them. Even though I felt just as compelled to do so as roller fans are to post in my thread. This thread is just my conclusions about the roller speargun, focusing on the facts not personal interpretation, which I think may be of interest to others.

Quote from Oscar

he said "I get the SAME power with a shorter more manurable gun as I do with a regular banded gun that is much longer...

Ad verbatim that's the myth I set out to debunk. It's just physically impossible, band stretch is all there's to it.

I challenge anyone to produce video evidence that between two wood spearguns with identical stocks, shafts and bands, the roller speargun has more power ie. more penetration at the same range than the conventional version. By identical band power I mean for example: conventional 2 x 16mm and roller "1" x 16mm.

My premise is that personal anecdotes are just that, but physics don't lie. If you take a roller speargun powered as described above and turn it on its side, you'll see the same exact configuration as the conventional speargun, with one band stacked on top of the other. More so the bottom anchoring point doesn't always reach quite as far back as the last tab on the shaft, so band stretch is actually less. The pulley being the only differentiating factor, are divers supposed to believe that it somehow magically amplifies the stored energy of the bands?!

Nor do I believe that the roller's band powering the shaft longer is a factor. The dispersion of the band's energy over the top and bottom of the speargun may or may not result in less recoil. But that's nothing that a conventional speargun with the right mass can't do. Even if it were true, it's by far offset by the tedious loading procedure. But I digress, this is about one claim "more power" so show me the money.

You're way off with the "many years" statement. After being the first to introduce Pathos foot pockets to US market (I was initially blinded by the idea that lighter must be better) it took me only one year to understand they're not good and stop selling them. Making this decision was tough because my competitors capitalized on the "lightweight" marketing spiel and started selling their carbon blades in Pathos foot pockets. They kept on doing so up until recently, taking years before finally realizing that the easy sell was not worth the dissatisfied customers coming back with broken blades. All along never bringing to light the problems with the Pathos foot pockets and contributing to the huge hype. Sure Pathos foot pockets work well enough for some divers, and some carbon blades will not break. But until you've had my extensive experience with different foot pockets and received first hand feedback from many divers, you may not be aware of what's better.

Based on the name and angle of the shots I predict the mount protrudes from the diver's butt.

Am I understanding you correctly Steven?

Speardiver rubber is not hard to pull, it does have a smooth release. It will stretch as long as you can pull it and retains power well. I had Speardiver 14mm bands cut close to %400 to where they became the diameter of a pencil when loaded. I like 14mm small hole bands, 2 x 16mm small hole bands on a pipe gun is a tad too much recoil for my taste.

George, you weren't on the scene I guess when rubber like "mean green" gained notoriety, so you don't have a point of reference for truly stiff rubber. Mean green was very hard to pull, you'd bust a hernia loading bands made with it, and when you got to %275 it would pull no more regardless of how strong you are. Considering how hard it was to load the release was less than spectacular I guess at some point divers simply equated "shit that's hard to pull!" with "it must move a spear really well".

What color bands do you like? Any color combination is possible for example: blue outside amber inside, blue outside black inside, solid blue etc. The more a color combinations is popular the more likely it is I'll start offering it. Color has no bearing on performance.

Speardiver small hole rubber tubing is available in black, red and white https://spearfishing.store/speargun-bands/