Ok,guys,
Ask her if rollers are effective!:laughing:
Posts by seal
-
-
Theories... if it was better it would be the standard. Like I said, it fills a niche for a specific target market. If you like it, great. But your beating a dead horse. You're never going to win over everyone so just keep shooting whatever you like. :thumbsup2:
Not theories,but Practice.I dont want to win over everyone,just thought my experience could be usefull to people who are dedicated to our sport
-
Just looking back on something seal said about rollerguns way back in post #145.
"The idea of the pulleys is to break the speed limit of normal bands. Every shaft has a limit that can be accelerated to with normal bands. Even if you store five time more energy in multi bands configuration, you will give to the shaft only a small part of it, the rest will go for recoil and drag."On reflection I think what seal is saying is that the rollergun's more gradual acceleration allows shafts of reduced diameter to be shot that would not be possible with a conventional gun as the latter gun's shorter and more brutal acceleration would load up the thinner shaft too quickly causing the shaft to bend and thus adversely affect the shot. Both gun types can store and deliver the same energy, but the rollergun can deliver it with less likelihood of overpowering the spear, although the extra margin gained will probably have a limit. If you shoot spears of a diameter that are able to take the acceleration then a rollergun and a conventional gun should deliver the same results, all other things being equal, as it is not about energy storage or gun efficiency but what the spear can absorb and how fast and how far you need to send it to disable what lies at the other end.
Yes first thing is righ,but its also about the Efficiency.The gradual and longer transfer of energy is more efficient not only becouse of the lack of shaft bending but mainly becouse of lack of recoil.
This is so simple that I hope more people will understand now: Everybody admit that rollers has no recoil-well if you can measure this lack of lost energy,then add it to the energy of spear,becouse it goes there.
Another benefit is that lack of recoil improves accuracy and aiming.
And believe me the recoil of spearguns is signifficant value becouse guns are signifficantly light compared to the heavy spear-bullet. Especialy most pipeguns,their spears are only double lighter than the gun itself.Even the wood guns where this relation could be 3 to 5 : 1 ,its still not enough.
So not only the gun shoots the spear,but the spear shoots the gun back with quite big value of energy.
In compareson the relation of a riffle mass to its bullet is arrownd 200:1 -
I dont think the sound from videos is verry precise method to measure the speed,but please somebody who is good with editors mesure this.I can try do it but obviously my conclusions have no big value.
These are four serial shots folowing each other.The target is same building foam from the test that was posted priviously.Just to say that my smallest double roller 80 has the same penetration=power like the 120 Denton.I have a video wich prooves that but obviously the video evidences are not good enough for some people to belive.
May be some people have allready seen these videos with the 130:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LtktOdlMCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYEutW2bm-4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iiquq06jJJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iMZmf4z0gQ -
Found an old thread on SB about penetration tests. The shooter has a mix of rollers and conventional spearguns. Pretty cool I thought. I especially like the videos with the Nile Tec and Denton 120, sweet guns :thumbsup2:
Check it out:
Roller gun tests with others thrown in - Spearboard bubble blowers drama forum
Yes I was folowing these tests and they proove what I say. The small Cressi roller is beating the other bigger rollers becouse its better made and competes the heavy Denton. And its still just a small pipegun.There are much better performing single rollers.The sliderings do not work well,they are too massive and kill the shaft speed
-
You post the same redderick over and over, at least when it comes to roller spearguns. Post or don't post it's your choice, just don't expect to not be called out.
Yes i defend my opinion becouse everytime I post evidences and prooves but I see the same negative opinions and confused teories wich are not close to the matter.
Dude George understands me best,thank you! -
Confused and trying hard to confuse others.Correct.Thanks again Charlie for taking the time to do this. You are of course correct about the velocity being enough of an indicator. The problem is getting the guns firing at exactly the same time which results in misinterpreted results like George.
I can reason through it though, especially because of the 2nd slow motion segment. Even though the roller shot first, both shafts appear to travel at the same speed or at least very close. It is evident that the roller IS NOT more powerful than a conventional speargun of the same length. Which supports what I said at the beginning of the thread. I actually expected it to have a little less power, but probably this is not a significant enough difference to be visible. Where is the maximum power anchoring point on the bottom of your roller?
Look,Dan,
Im not a salesman,Im a builder and a passioned spearo,I have graduated in University and I am not confused at all. I have verry good knollege about many kinds of guns becouse Im interested and I practise a lot.
Let me explain what most people call single or double band gun,so stop counting bands or ropes-its so simple.The single -you load one wishbone to the spear,the double-you load two wishbones to the spear and aply double force. Anything weird?
Me and many other people prooved thousand times with videos and penetration tests that:
1) A simple single small roller beats a even biger double banded gun-prooven.
2) So obviously same sizes roller and classic, the single roller beats the double banded classic-prooven.
3)But if we must make a fare test and compare same size and bands roller and same size and bands classic,then the difference is ridiculously big in benefit of the roller-prooven.May be there in the ocean spearos dont badly need rollers,becouse there is plenty of fish,but here in Europe we need them,believe me.Ask the champion of our spearfishing federation,he is using some of my guns.
However,the main reason for me to love rollers is not the ultimate power,but the PLESURE to shoot without recoil a smaller,lighter and faster guns with the same success like the heavy slow big cannons.
Anybody who doesn't spearfish for plesure,he doesn't need new and better things then.Im not confusing people,but oposit-telling obvious prooven facts.Finaly everybody deside for themselves.I just dont understand why is this noise and anger against a simple good fishing tool?
If you really think that I am misleading people,then I will stop posting in this forum! -
This iz our military pool where gather to train in the weekends.Videos shot by friends of mine
70 sm single roller,14 mm bands and 100 sm by 6 mm light shaft VS heavy double banded 100-110 thick spears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjuK2Ni0jxMSingle 80 sm roller 16 mm band,shaft 110 sm by 6,5 VS heavy double banded 110 with 7 mm spear.Almost the same at 5 meters,a little advantage for the classic gun due to the heavy spear.But you cant compare the dimenshions of the guns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxPPGtxulwM
Same 2 guns VS long single pipeguns.Roller is in the center
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsbZ-X-GYgAt 3 meters the roller was beating the big classic gun due to the verry high speed although the light spear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilJAPyxQ_ZA
At 5 meters almost equal becouse the light spear loosing speed quicker.My friends roller's are small but with PROPER tephlon rolls and diameter.
I leave to your imagination what will be tha results if guns and shafts was equal sizes
-
Do not forget that performance of rollers depends a lot from the quality of the rolls and pretension of the bands.To the double banded normal gun you aply double direct force to the spear and it still performes worce.I think its fair to compare single to single or double to double.
I take a bet that I will load a single roller twice fatster than a double banded normal gun.Who is in?:thumbsup2: -
seal-- I love the craftsmanship of your guns and I respect your opinion on the concept of roller guns, however
this ^^^ is just another vague analogy/opinion without proof, like formulas and math that PROVES nothing.
I was directly involved with the Research and Development and field testing of the compound bow by Holles Allen and Jennings Co. back in 1969, so I KNOW and understand the concept/advantages/disadvantages of wheels. IMO, just measure true spear speed, like we did in 1969 with a clock and you have your winner and your loser. Simple/done.Sure Im working on gettin a chronograph.
BUT the easyest and simplest way to compare the speed is the PENETRATION.Anybody could do this.Speed=energy=penetration.This is what we need and its done many times.The penetration of normal guns always looks poorer compared with even smaller rollers.The complicity of rollers comes from bad builds or is a myth invented by the haters.I proper made roller is easy and relieble as any other gun.
I dont have any fake reason to defend the roller idea.I am making classic guns with the same success.But if a friend asks me for advise,I will make him a roller;);););) -
For the comparison that you are citing here the rollergun does not store more energy as shown in the diagrams below. So you are right, there is no magic in adding a pulley (single axle) to the gun. While the stored energy may always be more than a single band conventional gun it will always be less than a double band conventional gun for the same band stretch being used and thus the same F max on all guns.
The idea of the puleys is to break the speed limit of normal bands.Every shaft has a limit that can be accselerated to with normal bands.Even if you store five time more energy in multi bands configuration,you will give to the shaft only a small part of it,the rest will go for recoil and drag.
The idea of the pulleys and rollers generally is to aply a reasonable pack of energy to the shaft and get high velosity with minimum losses.
I cant understand how people still wonder and dont understand that.Its so simple and we prooved it thousand times.'Its completely same relation between compound bows and classic bows.I came home from the US with a compound bow and can say that it is ten times better than the recurve.Here is a competition between simple pipe guns again
-
Actually these two are from Florida,and here are some more.I was not verry lucky with the weather this time and couldnt dive a lot and make much videos.But I had great time with Spearooo(JC) and other guys from Miami!Next time will be in Zanzibar and I hope to make more trophy videos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu1o-XRZ5sg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DgMZCxlCd4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iEN6qUQngk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8EL-aRz-f8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh026VNBWvE -
-
-
Here some closer view pctues of handle and trigger
-
I made some better sunny pictures today:thumbsup2:
-
Display More
Beautiful shaped guns seal. I would love to own a gun like that.
I love:
the left side line release,
the minimalist muzzle,
the band stretch,
the SS reel,
the raw carbon,
the nice wide loading butt
the nice large trigger guard space
etc, etc---:DYea,Im a fastidious spearo after all:toast2:
-
Hi,guys,
I post some pictures to show you my latest creations.These are heavy classic 130 guns, prepared to shoot with 8 mm spear and 2-3 bands.All parts are custom and hand-made.
The guns go to Australia(too big for our poor European waters) and we expect detailed review from their new masters:thumbsup2: -
Chase, in terms of power all a roller speargun is, is a conventional band gun turned on its side, try to visualize it if you can't get your hands on both spearguns. What roller speargun enthusiasts consider single band in a roller, is really a 2 band conventional speargun. A double band roller is a 4 band conventional speargun. The increase in power is pure myth, you can't get more power than the bands you have. As a matter of fact you're getting less band stretch with a roller depending on where the bands are anchored on the bottom.
Still Seal's is a well designed beautiful gun, with obviously a lot of work and thought put into it.
Hi,Dan,
thank you for the good words.I respect your knowlege and reputation,but the conclusion about rollers is not completely right.I understand that, becouse this is new and not veryy explored matter.
First of all,in equal conditions the roller has double more band volume than standart gun,and yes-a single roller has the total band volume of a double band standart gun same lenght.But,the secret here is the SPEED.
Normal band contraction has a limited speed,this is a peak value wich cant be emprooved,even if you put hundred bands.The roller system is breaking this peak alowing the band to moove with a higher speed than its normal contraction.
I will give you a siple exemple to be understood-the spear of australian aboriginals that they hunt animals with.They use a simple stick as a lever and atach the end to the spear butt.With this device they throw the spear twice the distance than normal by the same hand,usig only one aditional moove of the virst.They are throwing and pushing with the wirts at the same time.
Similar is the roller concept-the upper part of the band is pushing the the shaft and the down part is pulling throught the rolls at the same time,givving more speed than the normal contraction speed of the bands.The speed that can be achieved this way cant be beaten even if you put 100 bands to a normal gun.
For me is much much easyer to build and advertise classic guns,but I always stick to the obvious facts.
And the complication of the roller is a myth-they are easy to use and reliable as any other gun,just are difficult to build.
The lack of recoil and good accuracy are bonus;) -
I estimate the extra power is about 50%. I got to this conclusion measuring the penetration.A good double 80 roller with 8 mm spear penetrates same like standart heavy double banded 120 sm gun
