From my understanding the reason the 1 roller band is similar to 2.5 bands, which is a very rough approximation, has to do with how long the band is applying force. In a conventional gun with a 20 in band there is a section at the front of the gun, roughly the last 12", where the band is no longer applying force.
That is the clearest explanation I have ever heard about the subject. Thank you
You're not missing anything John, it's just smoke and mirrors. A one band roller is the same as two band conventional gun, the bands are just positioned in a different place, running along each side of the gun instead of both running along the top. If you measure each band section and the band stretch on a roller, you'll see that even at best (loaded as close to the trigger guard on the bottom as possible) it doesn't reach the minimum %300 stretch we require on conventional guns. And it's more difficult to load.
Using roller gun logic: 1 band roller = 2 band conventional = 4 band tie in/ferrules which brings us back full circle
Like most other things, it's not necessarily about convincing me that it's something that is better than what I currently use. It's simply a matter of having the actual experience to develop an informed opinion on the matter;)
For what it's worth, when I first tested my "Dirty Water Rollergun" in my test tank I took a 9/32" and a 5/16" shaft and shot them into a block archery target that was 12" thick. With the same gun, same band setup, same target I got roughly twice the penetration with the 5/16" shaft, with both one and 2 bands. Not very scientific, but it definitely supports what Don is saying. Target was at about 12' so distances were pretty close. I got the same result at 16'.
I would like to see the results of a similar test done with a roller gun and a "standard" 2 band gun of the same length shooting the same shaft.
Part of the problem of my understanding the roller concept is that half of the band is under the gun with tension opposing the travel direction of the shaft. I appreciate the further explanations. It definitely helps.
I think it's kind of "a consultant's answer" - "it depends".
Thanks for the explanation and your perspective. Most everything said is all stuff I have already heard. I guess my real problem is understanding how one long band equates to 2.5 short bands. I didn't do a very good job of asking the question in my post. It may sound silly, I know I should "get it", but there is something in my mind that just doesn't seem to agree.
Like most things for me, the best way to gain any real perspective on something is to experience it. I would like the opportunity to shoot a roller gun someday.
I was never able to completely wrap my mind around the concept of the roller gun...
If more power is needed on a shorter gun, why not just add another band? It seems a much simpler and more practical solution to all the "bells and whistles".
The part I can't really seem to wrap my mind around how increased band length is going to give anymore real power. The length of the rubber still needs to be stretched to the same ratio to be effective. With that said; doesn't that translate to the same amount of power?
Am I missing something? The gun John posted has spectra wishbones??
I bought my gun unrigged. I dont care for metal wishbones either, not that I really had a choice in the matter. The gun was unrigged to begin with. I also don't trust anybody's rigging but mine:laughing:
Just for clarification, I am not saying that I would specifically take a 130 railgun in the pursuit of large tuna. If specifically targeting tuna, I would take a gun appropriate for targeting those fish like a 4-5 band 65" minimum length gun.
My point is, that I am not going to take a tuna gun out to the rigs to hunt AJ, Cobia and Snapper, in the off-chance that a tuna swims by.
If you take a look at my gallery, all the fish in there with the exception of the white seabass, were taken with a 2 band railgun.
over kill is better than under kill in my book
I used to feel that way as well. I prefer the minimalist approach now.
This gun was made in response to using a long euro gun and wishing so badly it was just a little longer and more powerful too many times. Maybe one day when I'm a better hunter and can get hoos closer a single band euro might be all I need but until then I'd rather put less schoolies on the boat and be prepared for everything.
That's a hard thing to do. My 130 railgun pretty much fills that purpose but it has it's limits as I found out the hard (and rather disappointing way) last weekend.
While diving a rig in 200' of water for Amberjack, I dove down and saw a big shadow coming out of the murk. I figured it was a big AJ and then noticed the 3' long sickles:@ Two monster yellowfin tuna! Kicked as long as I could until I felt that they were in range, (and also at the end of my breath-hold)and fired, only to have the shooting line reach the end of it's length and "kiss" the fish:(
We can never be prepared for all the "what ifs".The best thing to do is prepared for what's most likely to be there.
i really love the cuttlefish profile of these guns ... and i want to use it on my next build but is there any problem with strength ? :confused1:
No. They are triangular in a basic sense, if looking at the gun from the front or back, with the top or peak of the triangle being cut to accommodate the track. With the two bottom corners being rounded off, it makes the gun very hydrodynamic making it easy to swing to horizontally.
I think you need the TeakSea speargun in this tread.
Its known as a very accurate gun.
I really like the look of the Azimuth T8
John, is that a goat in your second pic?
Yes. That's Gizmo. He acts just like a dog:crazy:
He does a fine job of keeping the the yard manicured:)
Thanks Don. I really like the flow as well. This is one of the most aesthetically pleasing examples of form following function, that I have ever seen. There are no wasted cuts on the wood. Every cut shape of the wood has purpose.
The gun is beautiful in every aspect.
Just thought I would share this as I haven't seen anything posted about them yet here.
This is a Benthos Rubra 120, made in Greece. I got it from a friend while In Southern California last fall. This is the gun I have been wanting for quite some time. The big attraction to me is the wide flat cuttlefish shaped body along with the rear handle. I have seen similar guns, but this one is one of the cleanest designs I have ever seen.
The gun is perfectly balanced and has quite a bit of mass. I don't know exactly what it weighs, as I have never weighed it, But I would say that it weighs about 6.5-7lbs fully rigged.
I got a chance to use this gun last November on an exceptional day in the Gulf of mexico. I managed to put 5 Almacos from 20-35lbs and a mid 40 Amberjack in the boat.
The gun tracked/swung really well. Felt recoil was almost not even noticeable. I will mention that I only had 2 bands on the gun at the time. I just re-rigged the gun yesterday with 3 bands and a 7.5mm shaft. previously I had a 7mm shaft on the gun as it was al i could find locally at the time I got the gun.
I was so pleased with the gun, I had a 130 made. it has just arrived in So Cal and I will be picking it up when I return to So Cal early next week for work. Looks like I am just in time for the spring white seabass "love fest":laughing:
And for Don paul: "IT SHOOTS LIKE A FREAKIN' LAZER MAN!":laughing3:
Apparently.some splices will slip and need to be finished with a whipping.
I would expect that to be the case especially with urathane coated cordage.
Mike, it's been a while since I used the dyna glide, but isn't it a hollow braid? If so, it could be spliced, which would be the strongest connection to use.
I have never tried it for shooting line, but I have used it for reel lines and floatlines.
My suggestion to anyone that wants to crimp spectra would be to tie a simple overhand knot on the tag end of the spectra just in case the spectra does slip.
My experience with it slipping was not prestretching the line before making the crimp. The core slipped from the outer sheath, causing the overall diameter to shrink and slip through the crimp.
John I know your one of the better speros and shoot big fish regularly, so very interested that it hasn't been a issue with the bowline on spectra costing you 60-70% of the breaking strength.
Yes, it does. I did a static load test with Mori a few years ago with some 600lb dyneema tied with bowlines. If I remember correctly the line broke at 214lbs.
Anyone that can oppose that kind of force while in the water is my hero:thumbsup2:
My primary concern with shooting line is max abrasion resistance. Other factors of course, are memory of the line, which can cause steering and also drag. This often happens with steel cable. I just don't like cable at all. And mono has absolutely no place in rig diving. Cable lasts about one big fish per shot before I would want to change it out. The best compromise I have come up with in the last 8 years of spearfishing is dyneema.
I have never had a knot break while spearfishing. I have had crimps fail on cable and spectra. I have never had an issue with dyneema causing steerage problems.
Yes, of course dyneema frays, but I have never had a line severed while fighting a fish in the rigs. As I mentioned in the other thread, dyneema can quickly be changed out out with nothing more than a knife and some spare line, of which I always try to carry with me. I leave a 60-70' length rolled in my dive bag at all times.
Very cool. I would not have thought that that the sleeves line would be held by a crimp. Awesome
I have had crimps hold fine and have had them slip. Its a gamble. I just tie a bowline. Problem solved. No need for sleeves or crimping tools. The job can even be accomplished in the water while diving. I've done this several times in the past when my mono shooting lines got nicked or frayed and re-rigged in the water with the reel line. Now I just use dyneema 100% of the time.
I prefer tabs as far back as possible with about an 1-1/2" spacing between them. I can see the practicality of further spacing for powering up or down provided the tabs are high enough to stack bands on the same tab. Most of the mini sharkfin style tabs or notches only allow for one band to be placed on the tab or in the notch.
