Posts by Chase

Quote from hau

hope this helps

Thats great, much respect. But with those sponsorships did you fight in any wars in an infantry or special operations unit? No disrespect I just want to know. I wasn't shooting targets at competitions for bragging rights. I lived and slept with my guns. Shot everything from pistoles, AR's, MG's, Grenade launchers, Rockets, employed claymore mines in actual defensive position while being over run by taliban. Done raids with DEA(bet you wouldnt guess they were over there) and SAS.. And then I went back for more. Now my body is too banged up to kick in doors, or breach them, so I talk shit with you guys and shoot fish now and I enjoy it almost as much.

My point wasn't to get into a bigger dick competition. I was merely trying to get the point across that firearms do not compare to spearguns (giant sling shots). Equations, ballistics, etc. are cool to talk about in theory, but real world testing is the proof.

Can someone please do the penetration tests so we can end this? This thread has around 3k views :laughing3:

Hey dude,

I have a buddy I dive with who lives in Kendall. He usually comes up my way, which is in Hollywood. We usually get some nice fish and you're more than welcome to come diving with me anytime. I dive with another member on these forums as well, Liquid. He's a cool guy also. Shoot me a PM or something if you want to get out we just have to wait for the water to chill out. Maybe next week it will start to calm down.

Later,

Chase

Quote from Wishihadgills

Chase. It's not that penetration tests aren't useful. The problem is there are a lot of variables that influence penetration. Tip shape, sharpness, mass, roughness, variations in density of the target material, angle of penetration and others. If you could control enough of these or take enough test shots that the error is minimized you could get useful information from penetration. It's just a lot more work than simply measuring the velocity.

Xan, that's why the tester is supposed to be using equal components for each gun. Same shaft, bands, barrel length, etc.

Velocity can be drastically reduced based on a lot of variables as well.

Nobody has to believe me or side with me, but it's common sense. I don't need a degree in physics to understand that the deepest penetration with the flattest trajectory accurately hitting the target is the winner.

For example, you could easily get huge velocity with a fast thin 6.5mm shaft. That thing would zing. However, down range that fast thin shaft wont penetrate the skull of a nice thick pargo like a thicker 7.5-8mm shaft would. And at the end of the day thats what matters, not chronograph numbers. That demonstrates true power, which is what the original argument was.

Let's see some penetration tests in a controlled environment :thumbsup2:

Quote from dsculley

I am in Orange Beach AL. If there is someone close by with a roller gun we can shoot it over a chronograph. And the chrono is conclusive. If you have two projectiles of the same mass and form (spears), the one that has the fastest muzzle velocity will have the most energy. This equals flatter trajectory and more penetration. Penetration comes from momentum, or the remaining energy when it reaches the target. If you want to prove it to yourself, go to any ballistics program, select a bullet, then run the program with two different muzzle velocities using the same projectile. The one with the higher muzzle velocity will shoot flatter and retain more energy downrange. Whether you are shooting bullets, arrows or spears the science that predicts performance is called ballistics and is a function of the mass and form of the projectile and the amount of energy that is used to launch the projectile.

Dennis

According to the pool test in Ultimate Spearfishing Magazine thats not always true. They shot a 4 banded american mech bluewater cannon to compare against the others. While it had great penetration, it did not shoot in a flat trajectory and the shot was low of its mark.

The greatest penetration with the flatest trajectory wins. You must have both. If not, you're losing performance regardless of the equations.

I've shot plenty of guns in my day, probably more so than anyone else on in this discussion. You can't compare ballistics from firearms out of water to spearguns underwater. 2 different environments with different variables. A sniper rifle of the right caliber can take out a target over a mile away. What's the max range on speargun? The average shots are between 4-6 meters. So let's stop comparing spearguns to firearms please.

Why does everyone keep saying that penetration doesn't prove anything? Let's get some video of a properly balanced and powered up conventional gun side by side with a comparable roller in regards to length, bands, etc. And have them both shoot through a nice foam target from 5 & 6 meters away. Screw the chronograph, we're not clocking baseballs here. Out in the field on the hunt penetration with a flat trajectory is KING, period. And best of all, this would be a simple test to do.

This guy seemed to nail it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSxIDUdjv8Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6AfkBMwRIg

And then we can all get back to shooting fish :thumbsup2: Keep the peace

Found an old thread on SB about penetration tests. The shooter has a mix of rollers and conventional spearguns. Pretty cool I thought. I especially like the videos with the Nile Tec and Denton 120, sweet guns :thumbsup2:

Check it out:

Roller gun tests with others thrown in - Spearboard bubble blowers drama forum

Thanks Xan, I trust your math. You physics guys have way more brain capacity than me with the equations and what not. The rollers are impressive, but do they really out perform conventional spearguns with circular band setups? Realistically, standard guns properly setup have amazing range and accuracy with a much more simple platform. Rollerguns are not idiot proof systems and require some technical insight and understanding to use the gun to its max potential. Otherwise, you're actually losing performance if you're not properly pretensioning the bands correctly.

To each his own, but for now I don't think that I'll drink the kool-aid just yet.

I just had a thought, what can a rollergun do that a nice powerful pneumatic gun cannot? It seems they have the same issues with the bigger models needing a load assist, but pneumatics have what seems like a lot less complicated system. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Chase

Quote from seal

2) So obviously same sizes roller and classic, the single roller beats the double banded classic-prooven.

I think this was proven false in that article from Ultimate Spearfishing Magazine with Chris Coates and Muhammed Al Quwari.

For the larger rollers you must pre-tension the rubbers for the gun to be effective. Furthermore, they also concluded that while the 120 rollers did well, they didn't show any more significant penetration than conventional setups.

Shooting distance: 4m

Conventional Setups:

120 - Single 20mm Band - 7mm Shaft: 144cm penetration

120 - Double 14mm Bands - 7mm Shaft: 141cm penetration

Roller Setups:

120 - 18mm bands - 7mm Shaft: 141cm penetration

120 - 18mm bands - 7.5mm Shaft: 144cm penetration

Also, rollers larger than 130cm will be much harder to properly load to max potential and therefore may need a load assist, which IMO makes it much less appealing even for hunting large pelagics in the blue and especially on the reef.

See for yourself, I've attached the article so you dont have to dig for it.

Quote from Chuckd

Here's where I disagree. A better diver, no. A better Spearfisherman, YES! And this is because of the less recoil. If your form is sloppy, like a bent elbow or weak grip or shooting sideways or hip shooting, the decreased recoil improves accuracy. From my experience, my roller guns( I shoot three different ones) have the same or slightly less power than my Wong MGS, but are definitely more accurate, IN MY HANDS.

I shoot my 57" roller gun 90% of the time. I'm most used to it. But when I shoot on scuba, a roller is too slow to reload. So I switch to my Wong MGS free shaft gun. I usually end up only loading a single band because the recoil from the two bands makes me very inaccurate. I'm sure with better form and a stronger grip, I could adjust to it. But I only scuba a few times a year.

Can't you achieve the exact same result by switching your bands from 2 x 16mm over to 2 x 14mm on your Wong? Most divers who make the switch prefer the 14's for the exact reasons why you enjoy the roller setup. In fact, that is probably THE best band setup for pipe guns, which lack the proper mass to accurately handle the double 16mm bands.

I personally like the 16's on my Teak 125 Speardiver and get a smooth release, but that gun also has the mass to handle that load IMO. I handled a Koah 120 Euro yesterday at Divers Direct and it's almost as light as my pipe guns. For some reason though my buddy owns one and claims its heavy in the water. Maybe he's being a wuss..:rolleyes1:

Not to derail the topic, but I really think it boils down to the shooter. Marco has the ability to get very close to fish and land some incredible fish with his 110 Euro. George, you have the ability to make those long range shots and land some awesome fish. You can check out Michael Takach's YouTube channel, the riffe euro 130 double band is all he uses and lands a lot of fish.

Is a roller necessary? Absolutely not. Will it make you any better of a diver & spearo? Absolutely not. I don't see rollers as the wave of the future either, they fill a niche for a specific market. Conventional spearguns just work. Why fix it?

It boils back to the oldest argument of spearos landing nice fish with primitive gear. Do we really need laser guns in the future? :laughing3:

(Standing by for the bashing)

Quote from Dude george

Cool, but seal was saying above that it would be fair to compare a twin band roller to a twin band standard. What I saw, and that's open to interpretation, was a single roller out performing a double banded gun.

The "single" roller is actually using one set of rollers and 2 separate power bands with 2 separate wishbones. Let's think here gents, how can we compare a roller utilizing 2 power bands super long to a standard gun with one circular power band. It seems obvious to me that this is apples to oranges, but you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.

The video to me looked like the roller was slightly faster, even with the video slowed down it was marginal. Show it in real time and you'd be far fetched to say that you could notice it. I think a chronograph of some kind would be more accurate than our eyes..

George, a gun with 2 separate sets of rollers houses 4 bands total. Thats like comparing your Koah 120 euro w/ 2 power bands to your big Koah bluewater w/ 4 power bands. Both of which are also firing different shafts as well. I'd say Chuckd did as fair as a comparison as he could with these guns. Adding an additional set of rollers would not be a fair comparison, as thats really a big bluewater gun for large pelagics and certainly would be overkill on the reef...

Ah, what do I know though.. I think that a double banded gun is perfectly fine for the reef while others contest that they need 3..

BTW Georgie and Steve, here's a double band gun shooting a doggie, a fish you both claimed needs 3 bands. The shooter is Michael Takach and shoots more fish, and bigger fish than the 3 of us combined w/ his Riffe Euro 130 w/ 2 x 16mm bands @ 32". Google him.

Quote from seal

I think its fair to compare single to single or double to double.

You should consider the fact that a single roller system can use 2 sets of bands with 2 separate wishbones. Therefore, a double set of rollers can have 4 separate bands with 4 wishbones total.

Koah spearguns just featured their new roller guns at the expo. All teak wood and using one circular band with big enough anchor points on the bottom of the gun to fit the actual rubber power band, instead of the small line anchor meant to only hold a wishbone like 90% of rollers use today...

:thumbsup2:

Looks very close. Gotta see the penetration results

Claiming the comparison of a "simple roller" to a conventional speargun is like comparing a longbow to a compound. There's nothing simple about it...

I own and shoot compound bows regularly. Two different systems.

My buddy Miguel really enjoys eating unicorn filefish. He says they taste like chicken with nice firm white meat and the skin peels of like a trigger fish except much easier because it's softer. I've yet to shoot one only because of how ugly they look and are very easy to shoot. Very curious fish, maybe I'm missing out?

Quote from Marco

I eat cuda over wahoo.

:crazy: They're good, but not that good. Cant eat cuda tataki or raw like wahoo. Then again, you are seaweed man :laughing3:

weirdo :rolleyes1:

Quote from Dude george

Cudas, that fish is insanely tasty.

I enjoy frying up some cuda with panko breading. I just hate handling them, their extra slimey. We call that cuda juice and it stinks :laughing3:

Quote from sdeisen

One that I cannot wrap my mind around is how in the southeast mainland we consider Chubs the ultimate trash fish. In Hawaii, though, chubs (nuenue) are considered a score and even eaten raw in poke

I've never tried it nor known anyone who has, but heard the meat looks and smells bad. When I see pictures of it on the hawaaiin pages and forums it looks dark and mushy but not as bad as floridians had described it to me

I don't touch 'em personally. But perhaps they are products or their environments. What I mean is that maybe their quality of food in this region is lesser than that of the Hawaiian islands. I'm no scientist so this is strictly personal speculation.

I've heard that spade fish are good to eat in other parts. I've never shot one for the simple fact that they don't look like they have much meat on their bones.

:thumbsup2: