Posts by makoa

A picture of my hybrid on its maiden reef hunt. Never missed a shot. Stormy seas, ripping current, in and out of the water in under two hours. :thumbsup2:

George, I totally agree. Chase, build your own Hybrid. I built mine patterned after Daryl's GR Hybrid rear handle plus 55". I tried to buy one of Daryl's guns that he built for a guy that backed out of the deal...he sells those for around $650. Not bad. I think I spent about $250 and a couple of Airline passes for my build. But it is a great gun. I built it after diving with a South Point assassin who shoots a 50" Wong RH plus hybrid. I loved how it tracked in the Hawaiian currents but still had the mass to handle bigger shafts and three bands of 16mm.

I have a Bobby Abril ( Kona Local Boy and builder) 55" "wedge" custom built enclosed track which was my bread and butter-every where gun. Weighted and ballasted for big game but not too big, perfect for for hunting bigger reef game like Omilu, ulua, big uhu's, and then blue water fish like shibi's (small to medium sized ahi), ono's etc. So when I built my hybrid I made sure to keep the heavy hitting characteristics of my wedge and used Daryl's GR Plus as a template. So my stock is ballasted and the cf barrel is 1.25 OD. So both guns are set up to handle 16mm bands and shoot a 17.5-18.0 mm shaft. I've penetrated gill plates on all the big reef and blue water fish I've shot (my preferred shaft placement for the holding and control factors) with this set up. I like cannons, what can I say? They work for me. I rarely load all three bands, but when I do I know how the gun will handle and I shoot accordingly. I live by the principle that regardless of the gun I shoot, know what it takes to hit fish with it and never let a gun be an excuse for having an empty kui.

"DG" and Hank, I appreciate your posts and I find that we share a lot of common experiences and island way of life. I look forward to shooting fish with you at some point.

Haha, yeah, it was the Apple Auto Correct! I had to edit as soon as I pushed the post quick reply button! But then I could always say that it is a local Fijian dialect from Kese Village on the Island of Naviti. Would anyone have believed me? Yes, please. I'm just waiting for service to Belize to start this summer and I'm there! So you prefer two or three 14mm bands to double 16 mm bands? I know Daryl loves the 14mm set up. We've talked about it at dinner.

In Belize? Very nice Bruddah! I'll check out your post.

Yes Dan, this has been a great thread. I don't keep up with too many, but this one has been a bit addictive::thumbsup2:

Makoa

Hank, where did you get the cubera?

Hank, where did you get the ci era?

Ok, the measurement from the roller to the band end along the bottom of the barrel is 41 cm when loaded. The measurement along the shaft from the rollers to the aft slot of my Rob Allen shaft (slot closest to the trigger mech) when loaded is 100 cm.

I'll measure when I get home. I say shortened because I cut my barrel down from the original Aimrite Super Venom 140 cm to make a 110 cm Super Venom with a roller muzzle.

Are we forgetting something here? I'm fascinated by the scientific brilliance that is manifested on this thread. But I am beginning to wonder what we're overlooking. As I have been planning how I will rig my guns for this little experiment, I have realized that I will be chasing an objective that is irrelevant to the purpose for me for having converted my longer pipe gun to a shorter roller gun. The debate that is being presented here, and that I am being challenged to prove through video presentation, has to do with the power of one being equal or greater than the power of the other. While this argument is interesting, it is not why I chose the roller muzzle concept. Dan, if I am to make all things equal, I will be putting bands on my conventional guns that I don't normally hunt with and that would potentially cause my gun to be over powered with too much recoil and muzzle lift. For example, I found I could put a 17.5-18.0mm band on my roller at 320-350% stretch and have a gun powerful enough to make open water shots on bigger fish while using a gun that is shorter and more desirable on the reef, in caves, ledges etc than my longer guns rigged with 2-3 16mm bands. My shortened roller gives me this ability with minimum recoil/muzzle lift. So in my application I have already gained an advantage by using the roller muzzle concept over using my standard gun and set up. How you ask? By having a gun that is better suited for tight, close work without sacrificing taking a longer range shot when I'm out in open water. Sure, I could use my standard gun (and have for years!) in those same environments, but it is always a trick to maneuver the longer gun and take shots with your thumb while the handle is back behind your head. So we have taken shorter guns out with us to hit the reef and holes, but not had the range for the open water shots. I'm sure I could increase the range of the shorter guns by increasing band diameter and shortening the band length, but then we get into the issue of an over powered gun. So that is why I have found the roller muzzle to be the perfect tool in that scenario. The idea of the roller conversion didn't originate because I was looking for more power than my conventional guns, but to have a manageable gun with the ability to take longer shots when needed. I would never shoot 17.5-18.0mm bands on my traditional guns (unless a big tuna gun with 3/4" shaft?), but on the roller that size band is manageable and gives me the rage I need on a shorter barreled gun. Swimming from shore as we usually do on the Big Island, it is routine to hit all of the reef, lava rock caves and ledges, pinnacles with pounding surf and surge, while eventually reaching deeper water and open water game. So having one gun that is a "crossover" in ability is really convenient. Launching from a boat as we typically did in Florida hitting mostly open water a conventional gun is a perfect tool. Does this make sense?

So while I will be glad to rig the guns with equal power configurations for this experiment, I'm afraid that I will be making comparisons between guns with set-ups that I would never realistically shoot. So while I am happy to assist in the practical debate of "Equal or Greater Power", I need to let you all know that It occurred to me that this is not my objective for choosing the roller gun concept. I still love my conventional guns, especially my DIY Hybrid. But for the applications of low vis, tight space in reef and inside reef caves, I am thrilled with the results of having a shorter gun and the penetration/range of the 17.5-18mm band..

I have enjoyed the debate. It's human nature to find an explanation and validation in choosing between two different models of a given tool. I race two stroke dirt bikes. I like the "power band" of these beautiful bikes and can out ride a four stroke all day long. But on single track and long steep hills, give me my four stroke to get the job done. I can't argue which bike concept is better, but I know which is better for me in my given circumstance.

The 110 I have is ready with both muzzles. The roller muzzle for the 90 Pathos is in the mail. I'm not sure I will have the wood conversion done for this experiment. I would prefer to build a wood gun around the roller muzzle design for better hydrodynamics. Maybe a later video showing the wood gun comparison?

I hope I made my explanation clear. Also, I hope you all will continue to work out the physics of it all as you continue to debate the topic. You guys are crazy smart!

Dan, the band length on the 110cm roller is 48cm which is a coefficient of about 330% (3.3) based on the Aimrite trigger being front-latch and not rear. Let me know what lengths, band width and stretch coefficients you would like to see in this video. I will accommodate, then I will compare the set ups I normally shoot to show how in my application the roller has been effective.

Aloha,
Makoa

Thanks hau. Your description was totally understood and appreciated.

Really? I thought it was like load gun, point at fish and pull trigger:laughing:

I'm glad there are guys out there with big brains and lots of brain cells. You all lost me at the word "calculation"! I had to go fill the bathtub, submerse myself holding my gun, and hold my breath till my brain disengaged.

Ok, so I have two roller muzzles on the way. One for the teak gun, and one for my Pathos 90. So we will have three guns to compare performance with:
110 roller vs 110 standard, 90 roller vs 90 standard, 55" wood roller vs 55" wood standard. Then I'll compare 110 standard to 90 roller. Like I said though this project will take me a couple months to put together. I'm not canceling my kids spring break spearing trip to Mexico and back home on BIg Island to conduct testing. I hope to have two cameras filming; point of view and side view in slow motion. I would like this to be a well produced and thought out presentation. Until This project is complete feel free to continue the mental gymnastics. It truly will be interesting to see who gets the closest to explaining the future results.

A Hui Hou,
Makoa

PS I do have mad respect for analytical dudes. My dad is a PH.D, a Naval Academy grad with graduate work at Stanford, UC Berkley, and U of Penn, and the Navy's pioneer on the GPS that most of you use for navigating your flotilla to your secret spots! Me? I barely finished college in spite of always ditching class to be out on the water or hiking in the mountains! So yeah, props to you!:thumbsup2:

I'll post the length on Thursday. I'm traveling right now...Fort Meyers tonight, LA tomorrow.

Ok. This may take awhile but I'm onboard with this experiment...and I'll keep an open mind. Even though I have now hunted with my shortened roller and am convinced of the desired performance characteristics of a shorter gun (140 cut to 110), and have noticed the reduced recoil and muzzle lift that would be comparable to smaller diameter bands, I will convert and re-rig two of my guns. I will convert my former go-to Hawaiian teak gun with enclosed track to a roller after taking a series of shots in its current configuration. I'll post the dimensions and set up with the results. I've ordered a Meandros Roller DIY for wood guns and will install on the same gun then put it through another series of shots. I'll film both. Then I will do the same with my Aimrite 110 roller. I'll reinstall the original muzzle and stock band configuration.

Like I said this will take me awhile so if you don't hear from me for a while, just be patient. My life is rather busy but I'm up to the challenge and I also would like to know the comparisons. Oh yeah, if anyone wants to contribute that amazing small ID Speardiver rubber for bands feel free to send em my way. Perhaps this can be a sponsored event? :laughing:

Aloha,
Makoa

Wow Oscar, amazing history. Thanks Bruddah for sharing. THAT'S what I'm talking about. I could hear stories like that all day long. Major Big Island Props to you.

Love those masks! Had one as a kid

Again I say, ITS THE HUNTER THAT MAKES THE GUN, THE GUN DOESNT MAKE THE HUNTER:thumbsup2:

My respect to the elders and pioneers of our sport who landed fish without the luxury of choosing between band types, muzzle types, shaft thickness, fin length, or even wetsuit rubber! These Kumu, masters/teachers, taught us more than we're teaching each other here on this thread. At the end of the dive, it's about what is on the kui, the stringer, that matters...and they got em!

Respect to all you guys. I'm glad to be a part of a great community of spearos. We are blessed to have the variety of gear choices we have available today. Go to a distant reef somewhere else in the world and see how local villagers put food on the table with home-made rusty gear. You'll never look at your gun the same way after that. Big Mahalo'z to you for sharing your opinions...all of them valuable because they are dveloped(hopefully) by time in the water and you have adapted to your own style and method of hunting.:)

Aloha!
Makoa

Yes, you gave me some great advice. Your technical mind is why I respect your opinion. I didn't know however that you had experimented with roller guns yourself. My bad. I have tried to express MY findings based on what I needed the roller gun to accomplish and I am well pleased with what I've discovered. The facts for me become another's opinion which is why I suggest to those that are interested to just try it out. It may or may not be what they are looking for in the conversion. There is no ONE perfect gun that does it all but I guess we are always trying to create one.

I hate the typed words because you never know the tone of the writer. Please know that the tone of this and all my posts are meant to be respectful and never "in your face" disagreeable. "Live Aloha!" Thanks for the clarification.

Makoa

No worries Dan. I'm still a fan of this forum and Freedivestore 😁

Got it.

In all due respect for you Dan and the experience you represent I say the following .You want some one to show you the money...why don't you just try it yourself? That's what I did. The issue for me is not that the power of one is equal to the power of the other. For me and where I hunt mostly, I need a shorter gun without the significant sacrifice of power and effective range of my standard length gun. And I have found the answer in cutting down my barrel and converting to a roller muzzle. I now can maneuver in holes and caves but not miss out on the open water fish. Period. Instead of cerebrally debating the theories of shooting fish, I decided to try it myself and actually get some fish, and I am glad I did. For me it's now knowledge of what works for my circumstance and not merely a theory to be debated over and over and over and over.......again. Just try it. You have the means. Then post YOUR results and experience with it. Perhaps in South Florida's open water your long pipe guns will be a better tool than a shorter roller gun. The point is, unless you actually try it and put the gun through your own personal trial, it will just remain an "idea" and "theory" that you and others are waiting to be convinced by someone else's typed words or posted video.

I respect traditional thought and the experience of spearos world wide. Regardless of how smart scholars may appear to be, there is no substitute for knowledge gained through the actual trial of personal experience. At that point the knowledge is yours and not merely someone else's opinion. So instead of waiting to be shown the money, go try a roller muzzle, put it through your own set of tests based on what you need, then post the results. No one could argue with what you had to say then unless they they haven't done the same.

I was headed out the door to shoot fish when I saw this thread. Now I'm definitely going to shoot some fish.