You post the same redderick over and over, at least when it comes to roller spearguns. Post or don't post it's your choice, just don't expect to not be called out.
Yes i defend my opinion becouse everytime I post evidences and prooves but I see the same negative opinions and confused teories wich are not close to the matter.
Dude George understands me best,thank you!
Seal, you post no evidence and no proof, only opinion based on an incorrect perception of what is one band and what is two bands. I do think you're just confused. With lack of evidence and proof the best way to keep oneself convinced of something wrong it to get others to believe in it too, kinda like religion, hence I said you try to confuse others. Put whatever spin on it you want describing band configurations, my premise that a roller of the same length is not more powerful than a conventional speargun has been adequately demonstrated in this thread.
I know first hand there is allot of bullshit politics in this sport and normally stay away because I rarely understand the undercurrents...
...you dont have to build guns to survive mister mayor
George, are you insinuating that I have an ulterior motive with this thread? Do you seriously think I can't sell roller guns and muzzles if I chose to? Do you have a problem with the business of sale and manufacturing of diving/spearfishing gear in general?
Lets make this painfully clear. The idea that just because of a pulley a speargun becomes more powerful is STUPID. It will not be the first nor last time people accept something without seriously questioning it. But if after being explained in detail they still stick to their erroneous belief, that makes them stupid. Chuckd prefers to use a roller, he enjoys it and I celebrate that, I would not down talk his choice of a fish taking tool. But he knows it's not more powerful than a conventional speargun of the same length and would not promote that idea. What I do have a problem with is stupidity.
Here's where I disagree. A better diver, no. A better Spearfisherman, YES! And this is because of the less recoil. If your form is sloppy, like a bent elbow or weak grip or shooting sideways or hip shooting, the decreased recoil improves accuracy. From my experience, my roller guns( I shoot three different ones) have the same or slightly less power than my Wong MGS, but are definitely more accurate, IN MY HANDS.
I shoot my 57" roller gun 90% of the time. I'm most used to it. But when I shoot on scuba, a roller is too slow to reload. So I switch to my Wong MGS free shaft gun. I usually end up only loading a single band because the recoil from the two bands makes me very inaccurate. I'm sure with better form and a stronger grip, I could adjust to it. But I only scuba a few times a year.
Can't you achieve the exact same result by switching your bands from 2 x 16mm over to 2 x 14mm on your Wong? Most divers who make the switch prefer the 14's for the exact reasons why you enjoy the roller setup. In fact, that is probably THE best band setup for pipe guns, which lack the proper mass to accurately handle the double 16mm bands.
I personally like the 16's on my Teak 125 Speardiver and get a smooth release, but that gun also has the mass to handle that load IMO. I handled a Koah 120 Euro yesterday at Divers Direct and it's almost as light as my pipe guns. For some reason though my buddy owns one and claims its heavy in the water. Maybe he's being a wuss..:rolleyes1:
2) So obviously same sizes roller and classic, the single roller beats the double banded classic-prooven.
I think this was proven false in that article from Ultimate Spearfishing Magazine with Chris Coates and Muhammed Al Quwari.
For the larger rollers you must pre-tension the rubbers for the gun to be effective. Furthermore, they also concluded that while the 120 rollers did well, they didn't show any more significant penetration than conventional setups.
Shooting distance: 4m
Conventional Setups:
120 - Single 20mm Band - 7mm Shaft: 144cm penetration
120 - Double 14mm Bands - 7mm Shaft: 141cm penetration
Roller Setups:
120 - 18mm bands - 7mm Shaft: 141cm penetration
120 - 18mm bands - 7.5mm Shaft: 144cm penetration
Also, rollers larger than 130cm will be much harder to properly load to max potential and therefore may need a load assist, which IMO makes it much less appealing even for hunting large pelagics in the blue and especially on the reef.
See for yourself, I've attached the article so you dont have to dig for it.
I just had a thought, what can a rollergun do that a nice powerful pneumatic gun cannot? It seems they have the same issues with the bigger models needing a load assist, but pneumatics have what seems like a lot less complicated system. Am I wrong in thinking this?
Chase
If anyone wants to shoot one, come on over to Clearwater. As soon as it's calm out, I'll be diving as much as possible getting ready for States and Nationals this year.
I have great memories from Clearwater & Tampa Bay (20 yrs ago). You're a lucky man to live in that region.
When I invented the roller fins I received a lot of the same scrutiny. However the facts are the facts. By mounting rollerblade wheels to my foot pockets I have created the worlds fastest freedive fin. Speeds of 67mph on the Highway one through Big Sur.:thumbsup2:
I really wish I had the time and guns to do a much more controlled test. Maybe this summer I will get the chance.
Honestly Dan, aside from the video Chuck posted (which is missing a few details) I have seen very little "fact" from your side of the discussion. I have shown a few times how the potential exists. If you believe that I have made a mistake somewhere in my math please point it out. Until then I stand by my work and what I and others have stated. If you believe that makes me stupid then yes I would be offended. I do agree that the simple addition of a pulley does not make a gun magically more powerful but that is an oversimplification and does not tell the whole story.
As for the sale of spearfishing gear in general (a little off topic) yes I agree with George that politics and other factors have really hindered the development of quality products. I don't think you have an ulterior motive and as you stated you could certainly sell rollers if you desired.
Chase. Although I did not read through the entire article in great detail, penetration tests are terrible ways to compare multiple guns. There are way too many factors that go into it and from what I read the testers did not do an adequate job of controlling the variables to draw an accurate conclusion from their test. Despite that, other than the sizes you posted, they were overall impressed with the performance of the roller guns.
As for the pneumatics, yes they have similar advantages in power and their loading system is fairly simplistic. their complications are internal and design and reliability are often more problematic than the extra complication of loading a roller.
Xan, do you think Chuckd's comparison of spearguns was apples to apples? And if yes what does that say about Seal's assertion that the conventional gun in that test was essentially double powered, or in other words IS SEAL RIGHT?
As for the sale of spearfishing gear in general (a little off topic) yes I agree with George that politics and other factors have really hindered the development of quality products.
Could you expand on this, I really want to know how/which product was hindered?
Thanks Xan, I trust your math. You physics guys have way more brain capacity than me with the equations and what not. The rollers are impressive, but do they really out perform conventional spearguns with circular band setups? Realistically, standard guns properly setup have amazing range and accuracy with a much more simple platform. Rollerguns are not idiot proof systems and require some technical insight and understanding to use the gun to its max potential. Otherwise, you're actually losing performance if you're not properly pretensioning the bands correctly.
To each his own, but for now I don't think that I'll drink the kool-aid just yet.
To draw a conclusion from Chucks test I would want to know the exact measurements of the bands length and diameter. As well as what force is actually being applied to the shaft. The only thing that the video shows is that the two shafts leave at pretty close to the same speed.
If I knew the forces produced by the bands I could make a comment on Seals assertion. If both shafts are leaving at similar speeds but the roller is using much less force then the roller is more efficient and given similar force output would produce a faster shaft.
Chase. It depends how you define out perform. If easier loading with less recoil and potentially more accuracy is considered out performing then certainly. If pure power is your goal then possibly. In theory it is possible but real life has a few more limits. I do agree that they are not perfect for every situation but that can be said of any gun.
As for politics. You are very familiar with how other boards promote or censor certain products and brands, preventing broader acceptance of many quality products. There are also brands that are willing to produce inferior products simply for profit and others that rip off and undercut credible manufacturers. In general I feel there is a large lack of engineering application and quite a few terrible designs that are around. Some of the best products are made at home because and intelligent and skilled individual was willing to put the time and was capable of producing something better than the current manufacturers. Honestly this could be its own thread so I don't want to discuss it much further here but working at my LDS opened my eyes to a lot of the crap that goes on.
I'm not avoiding the question. Without the length measurements I need to know the force measurements. If the band lengths are very close then no. Two bands on a conventional gun should be similar, but heavier, to one roller band but, if this is the case, then I don't think the results would be what we saw in the video. I suspect there is a substantial difference in the force supplied. My calculations predicted about a 20-30% increase in power. So this could explain the video if the bands are of.
Two bands on a conventional gun should not be double the force of a roller if the band specs are the same and assuming the bands act as linear springs.
Possibly, but if George interpreted your comment as an indirect way of censoring a comment from a potential competitor then it would be a similar abuse of administrative power/influence. However, this is pure speculation and as I cannot possibly know what George is thinking I decline to speak for him.
After you have read this would you mind deleting it as it is no longer pertinent to the thread and mere conversation.
Found an old thread on SB about penetration tests. The shooter has a mix of rollers and conventional spearguns. Pretty cool I thought. I especially like the videos with the Nile Tec and Denton 120, sweet guns :thumbsup2:
Check it out:
Roller gun tests with others thrown in - Spearboard bubble blowers drama forum
In these comparisons you really need to look closely at the "energy storage battery" for any explanation of differences in how the guns perform. That involves knowing the band diameter or thickness, the slack band length, the stretched band length just prior to the shot and if there is any stretch left in the bands after the shot. I know that one of seal's cable rollerguns has a band release gadget to slacken off the bands when his gun is not being used (to save the bands from stress induced ozone cracking), thus his cable rollergun operates further up on the energy triangle for the bands. The attached schematic shows how it works as the side pulley system never uses the lower part of the energy triangle, but spreads the energy of the upper part over the full distance of the shot from the top deck, so the force is halved, but the stroke is doubled. You can see that a thicker band (B) battery can be used in this gun which only ever band wraps a large diameter pulley at the rear, however you need to load the gun in one pull as far as I can tell. Two stage loading starts cocking a rollergun from the slack band condition in many rollerguns, but here the bands are already at stage 2. I don't know how much preload seal actually uses, but here I am showing it at an equivalent draw to that used to cock the gun and you can see that the band battery can then store a lot of energy for shooting provided you don't over stretch the bands to the point where they begin to yield.
But that is a two pulley system, a different beast.
Found an old thread on SB about penetration tests. The shooter has a mix of rollers and conventional spearguns. Pretty cool I thought. I especially like the videos with the Nile Tec and Denton 120, sweet guns :thumbsup2:
Check it out:
Roller gun tests with others thrown in - Spearboard bubble blowers drama forum
Yes I was folowing these tests and they proove what I say. The small Cressi roller is beating the other bigger rollers becouse its better made and competes the heavy Denton. And its still just a small pipegun.There are much better performing single rollers.The sliderings do not work well,they are too massive and kill the shaft speed
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