Blackout discussion

    I think you did good by telling your story. Becareful my man.

    Quote from Toledo970

    Yeah, why is that??? And I ain't talking 15' down either.

    I don't know how it is for you but in my case it reminds me of a phrase from the scene in The Last Samurai where Cruise loses a sword practice fight and a friend tells him "You have too many mind." I think that since I left Cuba where spearfishing and diving came very naturally with no extraneous influences things have changed a lot. Mostly due to the information and interactions I've been exposed to through the forums. There's been a lot of negative effect. Now when I dive I carry all kinds of baggage that I never had before. I'll leave it at that as whoever can understand will.

    Kris asked me to post this for him


    Dan, if you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about it’s usually best to not say anything at all.


    First of all, I have NEVER nor will I ever ask or persuade someone to dive when they don’t want to. Everyone on the boat is encouraged to help pick which spots we dive on and I’m always happy going to spots where people like to dive, they are always the fishy spots. We do sometimes take the boat out to very deep spots where there are only a couple of guys interested in diving because of depths or conditions or whatever, but the people that don’t dive are never looked down upon nor does anyone try to persuade them to dive out of their comfort range. Our diving on these deeper spots is normally in short stints of a few dives each just to check the water column for jacks, etc, and then we move on to other spots. That was the case in our diving on the Ultra Freeze like Jim said. To claim that I’m somehow making people dive out of their comfort range is completely ridiculous.


    If being in the company of good divers makes a diver push their limits beyond comfort then you should never invite any inexperienced divers our on your excursions, but I know that there are quite a few guys that join you that aren’t as experienced as you or Sergio. Jim is an excellent diver, better than me in fact, and was as gung ho to dive on that spot as I was, I don’t blame myself for the incident, I’m just glad that I was watching him and was there when he needed me, that’s all I would ever hope for in a dive buddy.


    Secondly, I have NEVER blacked out while diving, EVER! I have had two sambas (loss of motor control) which is just before a black out but they are not one in the same. The first one happened over a year ago on a dive to 110’ to retrieve a grouper. I had FOUR divers watching me that were each 100+ foot divers and they swam over and supported me in the water until the samba subsided. That dive was out of my comfort range but I had wounded a big fish and I wanted to try to retrieve it, I pushed the limits but I had four great divers watching me. It wasn’t the correct decision but I learned from it. Could something worse have happened on that dive that could have ended my life? Sure, but that’s true of every dive. I’ve always felt that I’m safer diving deep with a buddy than diving alone in the shallows. I learned from that experience and have not dove to those depths for spearfishing since, it’s just too damn deep.


    My second time, the time that you are referring to in your post above, was about six months ago while I was freedive training with my buddies. We had a drop-line and tether setup for safety and we were each making deep dives in excellent conditions with 3 guys watching the one guy diving. I made three dives that day, the first one to around 90, and then a dive to 111’ that I had zero problems doing. My final dive was to 114’ and I had a samba upon reaching the surface. I had three guys rushing to my aid and supported me until I regained control. In the spearboard post where we discussed that day I never claimed the 114’ as my PB and only mentioned the 111’ dive since that was the deepest clean dive that I had done. I didn’t claim a PB that I blacked out while doing as you claim in your post. I can’t understand how you can disparage my discussion in that thread without having been there or knowing the facts. If you heard things through the grapevine it’s best to check with the person you are about to personally attack before claiming you have all the facts. BTW, I never claimed that dive to 110’ when I had a samba was a PB either, previous to the 111’ my previous best clean dive was 105. I’ve made mistakes in my diving in the past but I have reflected upon them and they have made me more conservative and safe on the water which has in turn made me enjoy freediving and spearfishing more than ever.


    I do not encourage anyone to take any chances on my boat, in fact I continuously stress safety on my boat. The first thing I said when we arrived on the first spot on Saturday (which was a spot in only 35 feet) was “everybody buddy up with someone and be ready to dive with them all day.” That’s what I encourage on my boat, diving with a buddy at all times and at all depths. Are we perfect at adhering to that? Not always, but we do our best, and we’ve become even better at it since we’ve started stressing the buddy system to each other. I’m also extremely proud of the safety record on my boat, prior to Jim’s blackout we have NEVER had a safety issue of any sort, EVER! The worst thing that ever happened was that I bruised my finger pulling up the anchor. Part of the reason for the good safety record is choosing to bring only like-minded individuals along on our trips that are safe, respectful, and get along.


    We all make choices on the water and we are all in the end responsible for our decisions. I have chosen to be a safe diver and have not even had lightheadedness or any other close call on a spearfishing dive in over a year, can you say the same is true of your own diving? I don’t think you can. So instead of attacking me personally and spreading lies perhaps you should take the time to examine Jim’s experience and help yourself and your dive buddies be safer in the water like the guys in our crew are doing.


    This is my first and last post on your forum Dan, I needed to set the record straight, if you want to discuss things further please email me.

    Davie Peguero

    There's a lot I can say to address that post but I don't think it's necessary, all you have to do is read between the lines. One thing is worth mentioning. The only time EVER that I felt light headed due to an over extended dive was a couple of months ago diving off of Kris' boat. Of course I spoke about it hence the allusion.

    This discussion has gone past being helpful. Kris did nothing wrong in this case. If I went out with some other capable freedivers, then I would have been comfortable going past 72 ft (my max at the time). I wanted to see 85 ft, but that's it.


    I would like us to focus on what we can learn from this and maybe clarify what I did wrong. This is in no order, except the first.



    1) Dive with a Buddy, one up one down at depth


    Fortunately, this was a rule that I subscribe to. It was also a rule of the boat owner.


    2) Don't focus on a goal, see the big picture


    I got focused on the fish that were deep, a freediver should always see the big picture while diving. The fish is a small part of it. I got fooled because the visibility opened up at around 50 feet deep. I think it made me feel like I was "starting over", that the fish were "right there". The visibility fooled me on actually how far the fish was. I should have seen what was really going on.


    3) Breathe up properly beforehand


    After my buddy surfaced, I finned up to him (about 15 feet) to get in position. I paused, took 3 deep breaths and dove down (not hyperventilating). I should have kicked up to him and made sure I was completely relaxed.


    4) Floatlines with depth


    I like certain aspects of a reel, mainly the ease of dealing with a 100+ feet of line. However, in my mind, I will be diving with a floatline/float when going deeper. If I were to shoot a big fish, it would be all too easy to strip the reel of 150 feet of line. The question of losing your gun disappears.


    5) Be aware of the totality of the situation before you begin


    I didn't fully take into account danger of a 120 foot bottom and how I would react to it. I thought to myself, I'll just stop high in the water column. I didn't think, "what happens if I see a big fish?", "how will being tired affect me?", "am I fully hydrated?", "am I relaxed?". I wasn't considering these possibilities because I didn't analyze the full situation beforehand.


    6) Dump the Weightbelt


    After I shot at the grouper and missed, the gun was freespooling and letting out reel line as it was going up. I wanted to lose the belt (to be safe), but be able to pick it up. I took it off and tied it around the reel line to hopefully snag the flopper and I could just retrieve it on the surface. At the time, I thought I was gonna be fine, I didn't fully see how close to SWB I was. I should have just dumped it and brought the gun up with me.

    7) Stay relaxed


    When I turned for the surface, I kicked harder than I normally do to get up top. I should have just relaxed and taken longer to get up top while consuming less air. Stress and anxiety all can lead to increased air consumption.


    8) Dive conservatively


    Up to this point I was doing just that. I mistakenly shot past my max by 25 feet, which is ridiculous. I didn't realize how fast I was gliding to the bottom and how the factors I talked about earlier came together.

    9) Learn from others


    If you want to add something constructive, please do. I won't be offended. I will take some offense to attacks directed towards the guy who just saved my ass, though.

    Good observations.

    Quote from JimCuda

    1) Dive with a Buddy, one up one down at depth

    Impossible rule to maintain unless diving two guys with one gun. Focus on your limits instead. Learn when it's time to ask for a spot and don't dive unless you get one. Don't grow dependent and complacent with the idea that someone is always watching you.

    Quote from JimCuda

    6) Dump the Weightbelt


    After I shot at the grouper and missed, the gun was freespooling and letting out reel line as it was going up. I wanted to lose the belt (to be safe), but be able to pick it up. I took it off and tied it around the reel line to hopefully snag the flopper and I could just retrieve it on the surface. At the time, I thought I was gonna be fine, I didn't fully see how close to SWB I was. I should have just dumped it and brought the gun up with me.

    Sounds to me like you're not aware how much O2 is expended with the energy required to focus on a task requiring fine motor functions like what you described. Not to say that you should have left the belt on but I think you may have been able to make it back safely without dropping it considering what you were able to do.

    Quote from JimCuda

    2) Don't focus on a goal, see the big picture

    Quote from JimCuda

    If you want to add something constructive, please do. I won't be offended. I will take some offense to attacks directed towards the guy who just saved my ass, though.

    I think #2 is the best one, but I don't think you're following it even now. I want you to be safe Jim and that's my only motivation in saying this.

    Quote from seahunter49

    Good observations.Impossible rule to maintain unless diving two guys with one gun. Focus on your limits instead. Learn when it's time to ask for a spot and don't dive unless you get one. Don't grow dependent and complacent with the idea that someone is always watching you.


    Not dependent on it, but mistakes/accidents happen. It's certainly not impossible to maintain, we did it on this dive. We knew that it was important to have a buddy in this case. I wear my seatbelt in the car for the same reason.


    Quote from seahunter49

    Sounds to me like you're not aware how much O2 is expended with the energy required to focus on a task requiring fine motor functions like what you described. Not to say that you should have left the belt on but I think you may have been able to make it back safely without dropping it considering what you were able to do.I think #2 is the best one, but I don't think you're following it even now. I want you to be safe Jim and that's my only motivation in saying this.


    I wasn't aware of how the depth would affect me as this was my first time, but I was erring on the side of safety by dumping the belt. Under different conditions, I could have kept the belt and completed the dive without any repercussions. I was in doubt, so I tried to lose it.


    I'm unsure as to how you can reach the conclusion that I currently don't follow it, but I agree about #2 being the best rule. Unfortunately it's also the least tangible. I ask for a dive buddy, I can buy a floatline, but I can't go pick up situational awareness.


    This event has certainly opened my eyes to my limitations and what it takes to freedive safely.

    Quote from JimCuda

    It's certainly not impossible to maintain, we did it on this dive. We knew that it was important to have a buddy in this case. I wear my seatbelt in the car for the same reason.

    You're missing my point. There are different kinds of diving. People who tend to do "numbers" or specific wrecks all the time get accustomed to this kind of diving. When you're covering large areas of reef like what Pantoja and I tend to do, which is a habit from Cuba and shore diving and we're productive at it, you're bound to get separated. Even if you're only 60' apart it becomes the "same ocean same day" principle.


    Extending your bottom time to the point of danger can happen at any depth. You can have a situation in 50' that will put you in the same position, but you didn't have a buddy watching you because you didn't think it was so deep. It's best to always concentrate on what your body is telling you rather than counting on another person as the last line of defense. You get used to it and you're screwed IMO because one day you will be alone and you will push yourself.


    The seat belt analogy reminds me of the false sense of security possessed by drivers who wear the seat belt religiously but are really shitty drivers in all other respects, a danger to themselves and most unfortunately others. I don't wear a seatbelt most of the time but I'm very aware of what's going on on the road and take evasive action. I think you've seen that for yourself ;)

    Quote from JimCuda

    I wasn't aware of how the depth would affect me as this was my first time, but I was erring on the side of safety by dumping the belt. Under different conditions, I could have kept the belt and completed the dive without any repercussions. I was in doubt, so I tried to lose it.

    I was not saying that you shouldn't have dropped the belt. I was just explaining how certain things you do underwater will tax your bottom time. Focusing on an activity that requires fine motor skills is one of those things. Even acting on the thought of looking up to see how far the surface is while on a tight ascent can push you over the edge. I was pointing out that what you did, undoing the belt and fastening it to the gun, could have possibly consumed more breath hold energy than a controlled ascent with the belt would have. If you get to the point where you decide to drop your belt there is no other thing that should be on your mind than pull the tab and kick up in a controlled manner.

    Quote from seahunter49

    You're missing my point. There are different kinds of diving. People who tend to do "numbers" or specific wrecks all the time get accustomed to this kind of diving. When you're covering large areas of reef like what Pantoja and I tend to do, which is a habit from Cuba and shore diving and we're productive at it, you're bound to get separated. Even if you're only 60' apart it becomes the "same ocean same day" principle.


    Extending your bottom time to the point of danger can happen at any depth. You can have a situation in 50' that will put you in the same position, but you didn't have a buddy watching you because you didn't think it was so deep. It's best to always concentrate on what your body is telling you rather than counting on another person as the last line of defense. You get used to it and you're screwed IMO because one day you will be alone and you will push yourself.


    True. The buddy system isn't designed to work that way. There are gonna be times when you will be separated. When that happens, then you play even deeper within your limits.


    Counting on another person is definitely a mistake, but in this case that's not what I did. I did not feel the need to breathe and pushed through, I didn't feel starved for air until well into the ascent. I went far deeper than I was supposed to and experienced. That was the mistake - that's what the buddy is for, for those times when it's too late.


    I have a feeling we are in complete agreement, but we're just talking about the fine details.

    Edited once, last by JimCuda ().

    Quote from seahunter49


    The seat belt analogy reminds me of the false sense of security possessed by drivers who wear the seat belt religiously but are really shitty drivers in all other respects, a danger to selves and most unfortunately others. I don't wear a seatbelt most of the time but I'm very aware of what's going on on the road and take evasive action. I think you've seen that for yourself ;)I was not saying that you shouldn't have dropped the belt. I was just explaining how certain things you do underwater will tax your bottom time. Focusing on an activity that requires fine motor skills is one of those things. Even acting on the thought of looking up to see how far the surface is while on a tight ascent can push you over the edge. I was pointing out that what you did, undoing the belt and fastening it to the gun, could have possibly consumed more breath hold energy than a controlled ascent with the belt would have. If you get to the point where you decide to drop your belt there is no other thing that should be on your mind than pull the tab and kick up in a controlled manner.



    100% agreement, that's the point I was trying to make earlier. Seeing the big picture definitely involves taking into account what's using your air, even anxiety, stress, and thinking.


    Also, I drive pretty defensively -with a seatbelt.

    Edited once, last by JimCuda ().

    I would like to get into this discussion....


    I have to recognize that I pretty much don't do the buddy up thing, BUT, when I know that I'm going to dive deeper than normal or if I know i will stay at the bottom more than usual, then I expressely ask someone (of a similar level) to wach my ass, and this happens only when the visibility allows him to wach me all the time.


    There are too many distractions in the sea to rely you life totally in a buddy. I/e: a wahoo shows up at shooting range when you are in the bottom. What do you think your "buddy" is going to do? I'm not sure... :rolleyes1: But for sure is going to distract "a little bit".


    At my age, I don't rely totally in anyone unless at specific cases and situations. I think we should dive responsibly at the depts/times we are comfortable with. That's why imo a dive computer is a must for a serious freediver.


    This being said, I'm happy that Jim is ok and for sure he's got a good lesson from this situation. ;):thumbsup2:

    Marco Melis

    A bad day fishing is ALWAYS better than a good day at work.


    Thanks man, I agree with everything you said. The important thing is to have the prescense of mind to ask for a buddy in those circumstances.


    In my mind, the buddy is there for you on the surface if you blackout. As far as the Wahoo, that's up to you and the circumstances, not up to your buddy (as you said).

    Quote from Dan

    I want to clear up a term, when I said "ask for spot" is that the accepted term for asking someone to watch you or am I uselessly reliving my weightlifting days?


    I understood exactly what you said, but then again, I'm an old fart too.


    Jim,
    I think trying to put your weight belt on the reel wasn't a very good idea. What exactly was going through your mind at that moment? Didn't want to lose it? If you decided to drop it, it was for a reason. Why take even longer to place it on the reel, if you had already decided you were in trouble?
    From everything that I've read, you're a good diver. From now on take the steps to be safe(you know exactly what you need to do) and never think that your life is worth the cost of a weightbelt.

    Edited once, last by Toledo970 ().

    There's much to be said about black outs, most of it has already been said. I stick to the float and line method, but on top and most important of all is the buddy diving , which doesn't mean you gat sepparated. Buddy diving in depths means , two guys , one float one line ONE GUN. If there's a second gun it stays attached to the float fot the case it's needed. Asong as i'm concerned there'll never be acurate buddy diving if both have a gun and a lot of eagerness to shoot a fish.

    Quote from pantoja

    There's much to be said about black outs, most of it has already been said. I stick to the float and line method, but on top and most important of all is the buddy diving , which doesn't mean you gat sepparated. Buddy diving in depths means , two guys , one float one line ONE GUN. If there's a second gun it stays attached to the float fot the case it's needed. Asong as i'm concerned there'll never be acurate buddy diving if both have a gun and a lot of eagerness to shoot a fish.


    Good points Pantoja. Unfortunately, in reality, we all dive with guns in the hopes of that dream wahoo.

    It's certainly nice to have full confidence in the person you're asking for a spot, makes for good camaraderie. Even if I have a spotter I still would not push past my limitations. This almost sounds like I will never progress but this is not the case. It's just that my limitations differ from day to day. It is important to recognize this.

    Quote from seahunter49

    It's certainly nice to have full confidence in the person you're asking for a spot, makes for good camaraderie. Even if I have a spotter I still would not push past my limitations. This almost sounds like I will never progress but this is not the case. It's just that my limitations differ from day to day. It is important to recognize this.


    That was exactly my point earlier. If your gonna be going for new PB, why do it with a speargun in hand and a float in tow? Go out and do that(PB's) for a while, being spotted by as many people as possible, and then go spearing. I understand that if you're in 20 or 30' this might be dumb, but we're talking 100' of water and on a wreck. There are many things that can go wrong. Just my 2 cents.

    All you guys going after each other sux Donkey testicles.
    Don't you guys know each other's numbers, e-mails, or PM? One guy blacked out, he realized he screwed up, and we're all also supposed to learn from his mistakes. "A smart man learns from his mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others".
    If I knew Dan, and he made an out-of-line comment I would PM him or call him and tell him so. That would be the end of it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if you think that they are wrong. Why let it go any further than that?\


    One more thing, just my POV on somehting you all should listen to. In every sport that I have ever been a part of, including Scuba, down hill biking, jogging, snowboarding, etc. when the sport is done as a group the slowest or weakest guy usually is the guy in the front, that way the faster guys in the rear keep the group together. If the faster guys would be upfront, they would pull the group apart or have to wait every few minutes. In spearfishing this should also be the case. If the less experienced diver can only go 75' why go over 100'? Either that guy stays on the boat, or on the surface helping with what he could. Period. I don't care what all of your rules are and how safe you all are, you will be influenced by others around you. I have experienced it many times in many sports and have put myself in bed for a month because of it. Excuses are like butt holes and they all stink. Put a fork in it. We should all be here trying to help each other and supporting each other. If something needs to be said about someone, we should do it in private from now on. I hope I will have the opportunity to dive with every single one of you. My next purchase(as soon as my life is in order) is a boat, and you will all be invited to come out with me(just not all at once) whenever I go out. I hope I will be able to learn from all of you.

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