skepticism in reef fish

Very cool info Steve. The coolest thing is that the speardiver act as the apex predator. It is cool to think that man can be integrated into an Eco system without necessarily destroying it. Rotating hunting encouraged areas, hunting limited and closed areas on a regular basis sounds like the way to do it.

That is certainly an interesting idea, especially considering the "psychological effect" on hunted fish. I think that it would be difficult to manage though in order to make it effective in maintaining stocks since, as described, if the fish were less cautious in a no take zone that was suddenly opened up people would pick the area clean in a short time (especially considering most do not take just what they plan on eating that day but try to limit out every time they can and fill their freezer at home as well) so short open periods would be needed otherwise stocks would not necessarily increase and ultimately cold decrease even faster depending on the fish and fecundity/growth rate of that species (how long for that area to recover post closure after a fishing season?). There has also been a lot of research that shows that fishing pressure adversely effect stock bio-mass and fish size; especially in shallower reefs. I gotta say, I just did an extensive research paper/presentation on the Hogfish (which is important to us all) and the populations have dropped like 30% in the last 2 decades (now a status of vulnerable to extinction by IUCN); and much of this is attributed to recreational spearing and is the worst in our area with a 60% decline in stocks. I can imagine we will see some of these closed areas and season closures for hogs as well as size increases (to 18") occurring in the future. Hopefully they can work in maintaining and increasing stocks.

Here's the paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com…23-1739.2010.01613.x/full

After reading it, seems to me like they just tested the fish's response to seeing scuba divers.Their surveys were conducted with a scuba diver without a speargun in an area where spearfishing is done while freediving.

SR: Were those hogfish numbers based off Ault's studies?

I wonder how this would relate to comercial fishing, also is the only real debate I would consider of SCUBA VS breath hold spearing, there is a depth were spearos wont be able to hunt efectively on a breath hold, thus creating a natural barrier (No take Zone), and there will be fish there that could not be harvested by spearos freediving.

I always remember as a young spearo when guys from Europe would come here, asking what kind
of fish there were and what quantities at diferent depth, I did not understood it, and as they would
explain I understood that there were fish that could only be hunted by the very best and few freedivers , and there weresome that would never be touched unless they would swim up to areas that could be reached on a breath hold.

I still think though that for a responsible spearo it would not matter what gear he uses.

Quote from sdeisen

The bottom line is there is just too many people IMO.. a borderline 12" hog should be left to grow.

That is one of the things that needs changing, the size limit. It really should be around 18". At 12" many hogs have yet to spawned and in some cases may not have fully transitioned into males causing juvenescence of the stocks. I leave them alone now until they are a bit larger even though it means going home empty.

cmfish, yea I referenced that study as well as Choat, et al and a myriad of others. I know the data collection isn't the best but I think given all I read from various studies and just being out there that they are close.

sdeisen, I agree and as stated I leave the small ones alone to make more fish. I agree that there are too many people hunting our easily assessable reefs (go to the Gulf coast and they are everywhere in good sizes) but a huge part is people taking all they can each trip. I mean once I have enough for that nights dinner or one in the near future I stop hunting. I have no use for 5 hogs in one sitting shy of a fish fry. I think one for dinner and one for the freezer for later is good enough.

Roberto, the catch of Hogs by commercial guys, who do actually report their catches, is negligible in comparison to recreational catches. But I am sure there is something to be said for the free v scuba comparison; as a diver I know that the fish scatter sooner when they hear that thing coming (I hunt 98% freediving unless hitting deep stuff). I think though that they learn much in the same way regardless of the gear used; they know when they see that gun/silhouette not to mention the predator aggressive posture taken when spearing. I know we try not to have such a posture but fish aren't dumb and in an area so heavily hunted they learn pretty quick.

Quote from shallow runner

Roberto, the catch of Hogs by commercial guys, who do actually report their catches, is negligible in comparison to recreational catches. But I am sure there is something to be said for the free v scuba comparison; as a diver I know that the fish scatter sooner when they hear that thing coming (I hunt 98% freediving unless hitting deep stuff).

I agree, only comercial fishermen are required to report, or they could loose their licences, and the recreationals, we dont have any real statistics, but I wonder if they sell the hogfish, why would there be more catch from the recreationals.

Not trying to make this a debate , just having a brains storm, friendly one that could help everyone including me to understand.

The problem in my island is that they are closing the best fishing areas, am complaining and asking for size limits, I fear when they get the proper size limits, they would still keep closing areas to fishing.

Also, if you are after fish like Warsaw grouper, you need to go SCUBA, I mean, in some states you may get lucky ang get one in an oil rig, but thats about it, guys in Florida for example would loose their deep hunting grounds for the big blacks and Cuberas, Warsaw, ect, its a fine line and when someone says something, he is talking about his backyard, wich not necesarily aplies to someone elses hunting grounds.

I believe there was quite a few holes poked in that study.

While I may share the same restraint when choosing the size of hogfish to harvest, I believe this should be my choice and that the limits should be based off what is sustainable.

I also don't think you can make comparisons between Gulf coast and East coast. The environment is completely different. There is and entirely different set of parameters that governs the populations (food availability, quality, size, water temp, available habitat, red tides and other environmental events....etc etc etc). Most reef fish in my opinion should be regionally managed.

Quote from sdeisen

Thanks for finding the original article, I thiink you're correct, which makes the study less relevant to us

This kind of studies is very relevant to us, since they wont make any distintion on scuba vs freediving,

1- If you read page 2, they say " reduced flight distance resulting from protection may increasesome fish species-SUSCEPTIBILITY TO A SPEARFISHING" Januchowski-hartley CAUTIONED.

2- they say the closed areas may be opened, but then they would NOT ALLOW SPEARFISHING once open.

"if the aim is to preserve fish stocks, .this may entail the use of gear -restrictions ( they are only talking aboput spears) or short -openings to avoid a sudden ,heavy kill of larger fish wich have become acustomed to the relative safety of a closed area ( also only talking about spearfishing).

exactly Roberto...

They are trying to make inferences about spearfishing by studying an artisinal fishery (with questionable methods) and then saying that could be applied to other fisheries. This is completely bogus as their are vast differences between an artisinal fishery and fisheries of developed countries. The fish in each are subjected to different kinds of pressures and human interaction.

Quote from cmfish

I believe there was quite a few holes poked in that study.

While I may share the same restraint when choosing the size of hogfish to harvest, I believe this should be my choice and that the limits should be based off what is sustainable.

There were for that study but I read many studies that all seemed to echo the same results.

The current limits have been shown not to keep the stock within the maximum sustainable yield as currently hogs are considered over fished by both size and recruitment considerations because of the detrimental overlap in minimum size limits and maturity/reproduction of hogs. The 18" limit could theoretically raise some of these numbers by as much as ~50%. If a minimum size is given people will shoot it at that size; until I read more on it I did. One of the issues I think, and believe it was mentioned before, is lack of education/understanding of the issues overall.

Quote from cmfish

I also don't think you can make comparisons between Gulf coast and East coast. The environment is completely different. There is and entirely different set of parameters that governs the populations (food availability, quality, size, water temp, available habitat, red tides and other environmental events....etc etc etc). Most reef fish in my opinion should be regionally managed.

Completely agree here and they certainly should be regionally managed. But the point I was making was that there is a huge size and max age difference between the gulf and Atlantic fish and there is a strong correlation between these numbers and fishing pressure; which is more intense here because of reef proximity. But yea other factors play rolls as well as you mentioned.

With the artisnal fisheries and correlating it to spearfishing yes the type of pressure and interaction is different but fishing pressure is fishing pressure. Just through classical conditioning animals learn on a basic level through punishment and reward so over time and various encounters with spearfisherman (applies to H&L as well but I am keeping it to relevance for us) they learn what shapes and postures of us and our respective gear (long fins, guns, swimming patterns, etc) are to be avoided from past experiences. I think it is valid.