Reefchiefs Ameri-euro reef build.

    I dont know thats a hard question for me. I plan on keeping these guns a long time, hopefully giving them to my kid etc. So when I think about say, Don Pauls collection of older spearguns and what kind of gun I would like to have in mine I gravitate towards the one that can be restored to its original luster without even messing with the wood. I imagine a 20 year old oiled reef gun would look like a piece of oiled firewood if it kept getting used. Although like you said that does have its own charm.

    I think of my tito. It had a nice epoxy finish once. Now it is all basically perpetrating epoxy and very thin at that.
    I throw it into holes, wrestle grouper in the reef and leave it on the bottom to mark spots. It has no really bad gouges or anything. Just some scars and scrapes. I do understand the concern but I just know me and epoxy patience do not mix

    i like to spear fish

    Quote from LunkerBuster

    It has no really bad gouges or anything. Just some scars and scrapes.


    But you do have to consider that part of the reason it has no bad gouges could be because epoxy is hard stuff.Teak isnt the sofest wood ever but its definitely not the hardest either. Even an old worn epoxy coat is probably much more protective against damage then oil.

    WEST SYSTEM - Projects - Thinning WEST SYSTEM epoxy


    I highly recommend you read this if you choose to use epoxy. Ill edit this post tonight and pull some of the more importnant data for those who dont have time to read the whole thing or in case the url changes.


    As promised:


    "3) Water resistance of a piece of wood is not enhanced by deep penetration. Wrapping wood in plastic makes a pretty good waterproof seal without any penetration at all. Likewise, an epoxy coating on the surface is more water-resistant than a thinned epoxy coating that has penetrated deeply into the wood because, in most instances, the epoxy thinned with solvent is porous."


    "Adding 5% lacquer thinner to epoxy reduces the epoxy’s compressive strength by 35%—a big hit in the mechanical properties of WEST SYSTEM epoxy (Figure 5). The addition of more than 5% solvent results in an excessively flexible cured material. Thinning epoxy with solvent causes enough loss of strength that we (and most other reputable epoxy formulators) cannot recommend using it as a structural adhesive."



    The two largest advantages of an epoxy coating are its water resistance and strength. The testing done by west systems and many other epoxy companies have shown that thinning epoxy with a solvent compromises both of these properties. There are application where a thinned epoxy is useful such as with rotten wood but this is not the case for speargun coatings.

    Last part says it all


    "Does thinning epoxy make sense? In some situations, thinning is appropriate. In others, it is not. We feel that in most circumstances using heat to thin epoxy is preferred to using solvents. As long as the epoxy does not overheat during cure, the full physical characteristics of the cured epoxy remain. Adding solvent is a quick, simple method of thinning epoxy, but the strength and moisture resistance of the cured epoxy are significantly reduced."


    So basically if you want thinner natural coats you should heat up regular epoxy not add a solvent.

    I've been using thinned epoxy for years, never had a problem. The wood gets scratched, deep or shallow, penetrating epoxy is reapplied in 5 minutes with a sponge, and the gun is like new. I don't give a crap if anyone says penetrating epoxy is bad. In reality epoxy coating done under the wrong conditions is more likely to lift off the wood and create a defect in the finish, this will never happen with penetrating/thinned epoxy. If you're doing epoxy coating with a professional set up, a few guns at a time, then epoxy makes sense. And even then on guns stocks that have angled shapes, it's very difficult to get a perfect coat. For a single build an epoxy finish is a PITA. If I show you a gun with a thinned epoxy finish from a distance of 6ft, you will not know it's not epoxy, only on close up examination.

    Okay I'll ask a dumb question. What does a bad epoxy job cause? How bad does it look? Will it still protect the gun?


    Mark. After reading the article I would wonder. If you use 5%xylene in the west solutions and put on four or five coats. Don't you think it is better than oil? Even with the reduced impact protection and reduced water resistance it is still better than oil right?

    i like to spear fish

    If coral is chewin on the gun both finish's will get scratched and scuffed.
    For a work horse I would use thinned epoxie or tung oil finish.
    I have Phil's epoxie on my 3 work guns, but they don't contact the reef too much, just boat swim steps and a few Panga rides once in a while.


    Cheers, Don

    "Great mother ocean brought forth all life, it is my eternal home'' Don Berry from Blue Water Hunters.


    Spearfishing Store the freediving and spearfishing equipment specialists.

    Quote from LunkerBuster

    And I am sold.


    Thanks Don.


    I should have said this would be for oily wood types only, If I had a stock of laminated multi wood I would diffidently be sealing it well.


    Imron and Sterling marine paint rock too....but $. Phil's stuff is great as well if you ever go that route.


    Cheers, Don

    "Great mother ocean brought forth all life, it is my eternal home'' Don Berry from Blue Water Hunters.


    Spearfishing Store the freediving and spearfishing equipment specialists.

    I just had to budge in.


    - Don't thin epoxy for ANY reason
    - Epoxy will protect wood stock much better than Oil
    - A good epoxy coated Speargun looks and feels much better than oil coating.
    - Repairing epoxy coated guns is much easier than most think.


    If I do get several inquiries from this forum only...I will disclose steps some tips on how to achieve a nicely coated stock with a good shine....But I have to admit that I will not disclose 100% of what I actually do for obvious competition reasons.


    You'll get 90% within this level if not more....promise.


    Ihab

    Quote from LunkerBuster

    Okay I'll ask a dumb question. What does a bad epoxy job cause? How bad does it look? Will it still protect the gun?


    Mark. After reading the article I would wonder. If you use 5%xylene in the west solutions and put on four or five coats. Don't you think it is better than oil? Even with the reduced impact protection and reduced water resistance it is still better than oil right?


    A bad epoxy job looks terrible. The surface is uneven and looks like the epoxy has avoided certain parts of the wood. There may also be bubbles and other debris in the coating. Even a bad epoxy job will protect the wood where it has made a bond. The fish eye spots are not protected properly and if there is poor adhesion to the surface it will not last very long.


    A thinned epoxy coating on a naturally water/rot resistant wood like teak will probably be just fine. the natural oil in the wood will hold up and even a porous and weakened epoxy is stronger than oil. On woods that are not as naturally suited for the water this will not be the case and the thinned epoxy may trap water and foo more harm than good.


    I know first hand how difficult an epoxy finish can be to get right. Many custom builders do not take the time to get a flawless finish. Even many of the most respected brands out there. However if you put in the time you will get a superior finish with epoxy.

    Quote from LunkerBuster

    Okay I'll ask a dumb question. What does a bad epoxy job cause? How bad does it look? Will it still protect the gun?


    Mark. After reading the article I would wonder. If you use 5%xylene in the west solutions and put on four or five coats. Don't you think it is better than oil? Even with the reduced impact protection and reduced water resistance it is still better than oil right?



    Depends on what you mean by better. I think for water resistance a kept up oil job would be better. I dont really know though. I think the oil penetrates deeper then the epoxy so when it scratches theres more oil left protecting it whereas you quickly get to bare wood with penetrating, even multiple coats, not that it matters so much on teak. Theres also the fact that I could see myself oiling my gun all the time, I enjoy oiling quite a bit actually, whereas mixing up a batch of epoxy and applying it is stressful and annoying to me compared with grabbing a rag and going to town.


    Impact resistance I have to imagine is a bit better with penetrating epoxy over oil, but at the same time i read that it makes it more brittle. To me the big negative with penetrating epoxy is that not only are scratches horribly apparent but they are also into the wood completely. With oil the wood scratches but you almost cant see them, with epoxy the wood doesnt scratch but the scratches are visible. Heres what my holegun looks like after some use.



    Ihab's coatings are absolutely insane, my memory of Xans is more faded but I recall being blown away by his as well. Besides these two guns and Dans Speardiver guns most epoxy finishes ive seen including many production guns at the blue wild last year are just not up to snuff. I think Xan nailed it when he said the secret is taking the time to do it correctly and that means a lot of work. Meticulous prep, lots of coats, sanding between coats probably a few other things.


    Ihab I would love to hear any important processes you're willing to share. Im willing to bet a few others would as well.

    Edited 2 times, last by Reefchief ().

    For the record, xan is insane from epoxy exposure. He has sacrificed all reason and sound judgment to pursue the elusive "perfect" finish.
    Also, his gun looks really nice:)

    i like to spear fish

    Got a little gift in the mail today. Muzzles! Thanks again Ihab


    I had to get to work on the muzzle bending asap. In the end I made a template/mandrel out of wood and my dad and I used the table to bend it against. It worked great.




    Somehow my design works and everything fits. The bands pop into place perfectly and look level and great to sight down. In my hand the gun feels great, with the bands making a nice oval that fits in my hand well.

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