JBL Reaper speargun

  • I just looked at the JBL website to view the description of the "Reaper".


    "Product Description


    The sear lever looks thick enough, I wonder why they used plastic for the other levers unless they were concerned about how the gun floated. A trigger can be slimmed down away from the load bearing areas if it is cast rather than cut from plate. Any photos of the levers outside of the mechanism cassette?


    You mean why did they make the trigger itself out of plastic? Not sure, but could possibly be to eliminate galling? On "that other forum" Majd has talked quite a lot about that happening in a lot of triggers he has taken apart. Also, if I got the timeline right, Sporasub's fix for an uneven trigger on the One was to change the trigger to a plastic one. Even the Abellan trigger which is supposed to be very nice has a plastic trigger.
    (Apologies if I misunderstood the question:))

  • Metal triggers have been used for decades without galling problems. When "Undersee" made a eurogun out of the Asian parts bin, the "Don", they equipped it with a metal trigger. An earlier version with a different name had a plastic trigger, they said it was for making that gun a floater, but after some time they added the metal trigger when people demanded something more substantial. The plastic trigger hails back to the two European trigger mechanisms that were widely copied, the Beuchat and Cavalero slotted cassette for a floating sear lever pivot pin and the Sporasub Dessault floating sear lever which was also adopted by Rob Allen.


    "Undersee" had always made cocking stock guns, but had to make a eurogun as that had become the new fashion and there was nothing in their product range that was a match, so they adapted a clone from elsewhere, although most of it may be made in-house. JBL have travelled the same path, the decisions are to capture another market segment with a lower cost to produce gun.


    Plastic components are cheaper to make once the injection moulding dies are paid off and parts can be produced very quickly as the injection moulding cycle is very fast

  • Metal triggers have been used for decades without galling problems. When "Undersee" made a eurogun out of the Asian parts bin, the "Don", they equipped it with a metal trigger. An earlier version with a different name had a plastic trigger, they said it was for making that gun a floater, but after some time they added the metal trigger when people demanded something more substantial. The plastic trigger hails back to the two European trigger mechanisms that were widely copied, the Beuchat and Cavalero slotted cassette for a floating sear lever pivot pin and the Sporasub Dessault floating sear lever which was also adopted by Rob Allen.


    "Undersee" had always made cocking stock guns, but had to make a eurogun as that had become the new fashion and there was nothing in their product range that was a match, so they adapted a clone from elsewhere, although most of it may be made in-house. JBL have travelled the same path, the decisions are to capture another market segment with a lower cost to produce gun.


    Plastic components are cheaper to make once the injection moulding dies are paid off and parts can be produced very quickly as the injection moulding cycle is very fast


    Could be, and I was just being the messenger. Majd says he has looked into this more than most people and he says he sees galling in a lot of triggers (I think under magnification). That people don't notice the effect of this, he blames on there being so many other variables to speargun accuracy. Again, his words, not mine.
    Then again, JBL has made some "funky" decisions on this gun, so it could be that they are going for plastics cuz it's cheaper rather than any other reason. By the sound of the sales blurb you shared they make it sound like this gun is the next best thing after hot choco...

  • I disassembled a Rob Allen trigger mechanism so you can see the internals. The Rob Allen trigger mechanism I have here should be the current version as it came from a Vecta 2 handle, which BTW was misfiring and replaced (warrantied by Rob Allen US distributor) for a customer, I kept the malfunctioning mechanism. I don't know why the line release pivot pin is plastic. I disagree that there's a problem with a stainless steel trigger and sear. I think a plastic trigger is used to lower production costs. A steel trigger does add weight to a speargun, but I think a trigger mechanism is not a part where compromises should be made for sake of weight. There are other parts that can be adjusted to increase buoyancy.


  • Thanks Dan. The image I showed was from the advert when the change was first promoted. I had checked the Rob Allen website, but it showed the floating sear lever mechanism that was being replaced. The Rob Allen catalog that can be downloaded from the site is the 2012 version and it shows a sketch rather than a photo, so your photo is just what we needed to see. JBL may have copied the earlier version, removing its line release lever will give an indication by looking at the lengths of the two prongs at the rear of that lever.


    The sear lever movement powers the line release opening on this mechanism rather than removing a blocking element.


    This new "new version" has changed to two biasing springs, one for each lever, as distinct from one biasing spring linking trigger and sear lever. Both are compression springs. The single tension spring can break the anchor end on the trigger nose as it was originally designed for all metal trigger mechanisms, such as the "Undersee" which was copied by Riffe.


    As for the plastic pivot pin that may just be down to cost reduction. On some guns that pivot for the line release lever is moulded into the cassette or handle frame. On the Beuchat, formerly Cavalero "Canon", that frame is cast alloy and so is the integral pin.

  • Could be, and I was just being the messenger. Majd says he has looked into this more than most people and he says he sees galling in a lot of triggers (I think under magnification). That people don't notice the effect of this, he blames on there being so many other variables to speargun accuracy. Again, his words, not mine.
    Then again, JBL has made some "funky" decisions on this gun, so it could be that they are going for plastics cuz it's cheaper rather than any other reason. By the sound of the sales blurb you shared they make it sound like this gun is the next best thing after hot choco...


    Being a messenger is not really telling us what you know, but what you interpret someone else is saying. Galling and microscopic scratches are different things, most trigger mechanism contact surfaces scratch up, the question is do they roughen up and add to friction which makes the trigger harder to pull. One source of surface damage is high contact pressure on mismatched surfaces, particularly with lack of contact across the full width of the levers.

  • (Pete, you are on the other forum, so if you find it hard to believe that I can be the messenger, then I propose you search for "galling" over there. This is the word Majd used on various threads and actually four times in a post on a thread you replied to right after. So, no, I am not "interpreting it").


    Pete, I got you one the mismatched surfaces and possible lack of contact area. Makes sense.
    Whether it is galling or scratching, I don't know - neither did I say I did, hence 'the messenger' but if we are to believe Majd then something is happening in a lot of triggers that affects his aiming. So much so, that he felt compelled to push to have a new Pathos trigger designed and so much so that he is spending a lot of money and time on trying different metals and treatments.


    Me possibly interpreting anything was when I said the Sporarub One solved a trigger problem by switching to a plastic trigger - but I made it very clear that I wasn't 100% sure on the timeline of that, so I could be wrong.
    Also, Abellan who seems to think more about gun design than a lot of other builders, uses a plastic trigger. Now, if he machines them rather than mold them, then it could be because he finds it easier/faster to machine plastic. Or it could be because he finds it eliminates scratches and/or galling issues. But his guns start at 750 euros for a 90cm and the trigger sells for 75 euros, so perhaps it is not a cost saving measure. And yes, that was me speculating. I guess I could email him and ask;-)


    I do think most manufacturers use plastic parts to save on costs, though. I am just proposing that perhaps there is an unforeseen benefit besides the reduced cost.


    Cheers,
    D.


    [EDIT]
    Apologies to Dan for lifting a quote from that other forum but I thought it might clear things up (let me know if you want me to take it down):


    From Majd/SpearQ8:
    [INDENT]Galling and scratching with regards to trigger sears I consider the same. If you look under slight magnification the sears looks scratched ... but if you look at them at high magnification you can actually see that some metal moved from one sear to the other. This is like throwing a monkey wrench in a well oiled engine ... it just completely screws up the trigger pull. At best it makes the gun less accurate ... at worse it can cause a pretty dangerous situation.[/INDENT]


    Now, feel free to disagree but let's try not to attack the messenger. I was just trying to share some viewpoints and I don't know if Majd is right, but I have no reason to believe he wouldn't be. Anyways, as they say, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I will go back to building a gun for my friend now.

  • No need to apologize, there are no restrictions here about linking to or quoting content from another forum be it spearbored or other.


    Of course when pressure and movement are applied to two surfaces/sliding against each other, there's going to be wear. We all know that triggers will eventually wear out, either at the point of contact between sear and trigger, or between spear and roof of mechanism casing. Using good quality metal parts slows down this wear/deformation and makes it predictable, as opposed to plastic parts where deformation can happen quickly. You can say plastic is more slippery which eliminates wear on both parts (one metal one plastic), but I feel more secure with all metal parts.

  • Although an uncommon failure I have seen a photo of a plastic trigger of this type, may have been a clone, snapped off at the retention step so that the plastic trigger was in two pieces, the lower section dangling on the biasing spring that still connected it to the sear lever. My guess is that the operator had forgotten to remove the safety and with a mighty pull had yanked the trigger so hard he busted it, and that may have been the last of a number of similar attempts which had precipitated this mode of failure.


    On some of these guns the safety slide had a tendency to apply itself in that the operator failed to click it right back to the shoot position and it worked its way forwards to get in and jam the trigger at the top.


    In fact I saved the photo and just found it.

  • Interesting thread.


    Does anyone knows if JBL Reaper shafts are square or round notched?


    My Son Alessandro has two Rob Allen spearguns and swears by them. I changed Franco's Picasso trigger by the new Rob Allen one which is supposed to be smoother and more durable. So far, so good.

    Marco Melis

    A bad day fishing is ALWAYS better than a good day at work.

  • Thank you Jos for posting the picture of the muzzle with the bands cocked. The muzzle does look much better.


    As for your shooting style. Are you referring to the soldier position (I forget the term Dr. Maas uses)? In any case, it is common to keep your gun tucked. I do it for several reasons, but just be aware of where your muzzle is pointing. Guns go off whether your finger is on the trigger or not. Too many times I've seen guys trying to tuck their gun, and if they were looking from my angle, they'd cringe too.


    As for the shooting cable, have not found a fish or area that cable is suitable for. Dogtooth maybe from what I hear, but I haven't hunted any. If you are adverse to mono, as am I, give Benthic stiff dyneema a shot. That stuff is just amazing. You can even use it for wrecks as it is much more resistant to abrasions than mono.

  • As for the use of plastic. I could see an up side to the cassette being plastic, however, all internals I would want metal. That being said, I fear buying a trigger mechanism using plastic. I don't think I ever will.

  • https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156046523962926&set=a.442582042925.231726.743517925&type=3&theater


    I had the opportunity to meet Rob Allen at blue wild and talk to him about his design vs. his competitors. He was actually very informative and has inspected JBLs product himself. The problem he says is that with his trigger mech (I believe a reverse trigger mech he stated) there is hardly ever involuntary discharge of the shaft. However, the JBL cassette which uses an old Rob Allen design and more plastic parts may present more cases of accidental discharge. He said to make sure when loading the shaft to lock it in place because sometimes it will feel secure but isn't and when you load the bands it will discharge automatically. I asked him if it was worth upgrading the internals of the cassette but disassembly sometimes cracked the case or damaged other plastic parts rendering the mechanism useless. I guess cassettes are meant to be switched out as a whole anyways and I could simply put in the Rob Allen cassette in there which I plan on doing anyways when I rig my breakaway system. We also got to talk about rollers too which was awesome and he is only a fan of the single band roller apparently because it's enough to get the job done. Don't know if that was just a sales pitch however.

  • Responding here, even though water under the bridge now, those involuntary discharges were due to the dipping sear tooth designs not always pushing the sear tooth right up into the shaft tail notch. The trigger and sear lever were latched, their release is momentary during the shot and then they re-latch via the biasing springs pushing everything back into position. But it can be a false signal as with the tooth not fully into the spear tail notch any extra band load and the shaft can escape the gun without you pulling the trigger. The dipping sear tooth idea was pioneered by Sporasub many years ago, but copyists made changes to circumvent their patent and those clone guns could often fail. One new company made a Rob Allen clone in Australia as they were unable to source Rob Allen guns, from memory it was Aquastralis, and that gun was a dud due to trigger problems involving misfires. They eventually found a fix as the tolerances were affected by the plastic trigger parts swelling with water immersion, but their reputation was by then ruined and the company turned turtle. Their gun prices tanked in the marketplace. Strangely their different handle design won an Australian Design Award based on external appearances, but it was lacking in the innards department which is what really counts. No one was accidently shot during this debacle, which was very fortunate.


    Here are the Sporasub patent drawings, Hugh Dessault was the inventor according to the patent. One source of problems was some changed the spring orientations in the trigger mechanism in order to be different, that made the mechanism somewhat marginal in functioning properly and then misfiring and jamming complaints flooded the forums as a consequence. The dipping sear tooth guns got a bad rep after that. The sign of a dipping sear tooth gun is no backing projection behind the sear tooth, the former is what causes the sear lever to roll up or down in the sear box when the spear tail hits it during spear insertion into the gun.

    Below is a standard trigger mechanism showing the sear tooth and the backing projection on the sear lever. More examples are shown in the parts photos.

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