Pathos Fireblade and Salvimar 4One reviews

    Awesome discussion guys, sorry for only responding now (been in the water for a few days:). Will take the time to read it all before responding...


    Thanks


    Jacques

    Quote from Dan

    There's nothing more expensive about it than manufacturing conventional carbon or fiberglass blades. You just have to figure out the correct layup. As it is the back edge of the blade goes back pretty far towards the heel. I have a fiberglass blade here that would take the stress. It's not a big deal to install it in a foopocket with the tendons cut off. I can do it if you want to try it. I guarantee you will not like the feeling of the blade trying to pull away from your foot right under the toes, which is what will happen when it's stiff enough to handle the stress without the support of the tendons.


    The expense would result because you would need a lot of overhead. In order for that design to work you would need a slightly different (longer or shorter) blade for each size footpocket. As a result you would need quite a few different molds for layup and all of those costs would be transferred to an already expensive product.


    As for simply cutting of the tendons and testing it wouldn't give the same result. Those pockets are designed to transfer energy through the tendons. They have thick and stiff sidewalls and relatively soft sole. Many of them also soften as they get to the heel. As a result the footpocket wouldn't transfer nearly as much power because it isn't designed to do it that way. As for the the comfort and feeling of the blade pulling away beneath your toes, I don't think that would be the case because of how rigid the sole would be. with a properly fit pocket or something like what sporasub designed (the shoe) the pull would be distributed across the top of the foot and against the heel. I would agree it would still give a different feel from what is on the market now but if it shows to be a noticeable improvement over existing design I think people will rapidly adjust. Especially, some of the top freedivers who are known to wear footpockets a couple sizes to small so that they get maximum energy transfer, sacrificing comfort for efficiency. It was an adjustment to get used to carbon over plastic but now that I made the transition the carbons are what feel best.


    By the way sorry for hijacking this thread. Dan, would you be able to move part of this thread to its own thread? Maybe a fin design discussion section?

    I'll move it later.

    Quote from Wishihadgills

    Especially, some of the top freedivers who are known to wear footpockets a couple sizes to small so that they get maximum energy transfer, sacrificing comfort for efficiency.

    Ah! reminiscent of the fine Chinese tradition of foot binding :rolleyes1:



    I do prefer a snugly fitting footpocket over a loose one myself, but a couple of sizes smaller.. come'on.


    Our ankle and foot joints are not designed for finning. There has to be some give and energy dispersion under the foot. A solid blade running right along the sole will not allow that. And BTW fish tails have tendons.

    I cant do the ultra small pockets either. I guess Im not "dedicated" enough. I know we arent really designed have fins attached to us but the give comes from the blade not in the sole. If the blade were made to stiff then you would run into issues with ankle strain.


    Fish tails dont work the same way that long fins do.

    So I decided to bring this thing to life, introducing the Speardiver "freeblades" :) I cut the tendons off H Dessault foopockets and reshaped them. I figured the blade will need more support from the bottom so I shaped a piece of starboard. It doesn't feel much different than a blade in Pathos footpockets. It will feel different once the water channeling rails are on. I'll try it and post back. Xan, you're welcome to try them.


    BTW if there's a fiberglass blade that can handle that kind of stress it's this one. If it breaks at the toe there's no usable blade in existence that will bear it.


    EDIT - See these fins in action here http://spearfishing.world/fins…kets-without-tendons.html





    Interesting fins Dan. Visually, they remind me of the sporasub fins with real shoes on them. Are those fg blades Pursuit?

    Wow Dan!!! +1 for the R&D. They look interesting and I would love to try them. Unfortunately Im stuck in Atlanta for school. Maybe Ill get a chance to try them over spring break. Ive seen those fiberglass blades and would agree if the Pursuit blades cant handle it then nothing on the market can. My only concern is how the pocket comes to a point, but I think that the blade should handle it.

    Those look sick Dan. Any idea on when they'll be available? Estimated price?

    So great to see the Pursuit brand going forward with awesome products.:thumbsup2: those blades are sick.


    Cheers, Don

    "Great mother ocean brought forth all life, it is my eternal home'' Don Berry from Blue Water Hunters.


    Spearfishing Store the freediving and spearfishing equipment specialists.

    WOW..this thread has evolved way beyond the answers I was going to give:P
    This was going to be my response...bit late but hey:


    Fishon>


    “JDV eluded to the fact that comfort is quite variable depending on the individual”


    Not quite...


    I did actually say


    “At first I was very impressed with how comfortable they [...]The only thing which initially caused me some discomfort was the two little ‘horns’ on the back of the pocket. I never got completely used to them but it might be due to the shape of my feet as I’m sure many other divers don’t feel them at all.


    So did say that it might be ‘just me’ :)


    As for the ribs:


    Up until the point where I posted this review I had no idea that other companies were ‘rebranding’ the same product elsewhere until Dan brought it to my attention (for example your version the ‘Delta Ones’) Keep in mind that my review was for the Salvimar 4One...even though they might have the same mould, I have no idea what rubber compound is used for either brand and the stiffness might even vary greatly, something I cannot know unless I try both brands.


    I do however stick to my statement that thicker rails = a lack in the intended ‘return’ or ‘snappiness’ of the blade as wishihadgills calls it. His argument pretty much matches what I have come to know but just to reiterate my test was quite simple and the results were very clear: The same blade in two different footpockets performed drastically different...the only thing which the added stiffness in performance could be prescribed to was the thickness (and stiffness) of the ribs.


    As for what I’ve used: Pretty much all the brands you named and then some (C4’s mustang pockets, Leaderfins etc) and being a full time Freedive Instructor in one of the world’s most well respected Freedive Centres I’ve developed quite a good feel for their differences, plus points and flaws.


    Also completely agree with wishihadgills comment: “its not so much that the heavier pockets are "too heavy" and more that the ultra light ones are reaalllllyyyy nice.” :)


    Final comment was that the main point of my review was to bring potential buyers attention to the poor manufacturing quality of the Salvimar 4One (and this was not based on a single pair). If ‘Delta Ones’ do it better, then good for them...but based on what Dan has showed I doubt they are that much different :)


    Dan AWESOME trial there with the Desaults hehe Would love to hear what they felt like...
    Do those Pursuit suits come in both 3mm & 5mm? Looks awesome...

    jdv, the suits come in 3mm, 5mm, and 7mm.


    Salvimar 4one is the same thing as Salvimar Delta one. Rebranded means the same product but with a different logo. Rebranded is still made by the original manufacturer, it's not a copy and so retains all the characteristics of the original product except the logo.


    O.K., I now need a pair if the red camo blades. Just when I thought I had enough gear:D

    Dan, I wasn't quite clear from your post: do you make the Pursuit blades? That's pretty impressive! How do you decide on the shape for the end of the blade? I noticed in one picture there is a concave curve, and in another, convex. What are the advantages of each?
    After contacting SalviMar about the tab on the bottom of the f/p, I was told, "The tab is to connect the hard sole to the rubber which in turn adds weight but also energy transfer (in theory) also combined with kevlar inserted in the top of the foot rubber." I'm all for energy transfer, but I guess I'll just Dremel it off when my next pair of Delta Ones arrive, because some Pierre von Eecke blades are destined for them. I also got a link to a vaguely informative YouTube video about their new blade: AERO.wmv - YouTube Let it load and skip the first three minutes, which feature a bunch of still photos of the blades and some very European electronic music. Of interest in the video was the blades ability to withstand bending and twisting, but even more so, the f/p design: The tendons are removed, just as has been championed on this thread.
    Oh, and of interest for jdv would be the 2 year warranty:) My DeltaOnes take a thorough beating and are still going strong, so I'm hoping I never have to cash in on that, but I guess it's nice to know I can if I need to.

    Don't be fooled, that's a very soft blade in that video, it would be a noodle in the water.


    My video has better music :)


    Freediving spearfishing carbon fins testing - YouTube


    I tried to remove the tab, as you can see in my pic it's long and extends deeper than I was able to reach with a dremel or a blade. It's at that point that I got pissed and tore up the footpockets. I don't think you'll be able to do it without damaging the bottom of the f/p.


    I'll come back to comment on the blade front edge shape.

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