Speargun designs I can't stand

Quote from Dan

Judah, I do. IDK, will have to try.

George, the longer band accelerates the spear in a noticeably slower way. I felt like I was waiting for it to leave the gun, and felt the rubber passing/contracting along the rollers.

He just prefers a "slap" to a "kiss" :rolleyes1: :laughing:

Dan, I guess it isn't surprising that you wouldn't care too much for rollers since the function you mention as disliking the most is the very function that is most often mentioned as being the greatest benefit, mainly the soft recoil, which, as you mentioned, is due to the slower acceleration from the longer band.

Dan sorry if i messed with your thread i deleted all the crap

Quote from John Hanson

I was never able to completely wrap my mind around the concept of the roller gun...

If more power is needed on a shorter gun, why not just add another band? It seems a much simpler and more practical solution to all the "bells and whistles".

The part I can't really seem to wrap my mind around how increased band length is going to give anymore real power. The length of the rubber still needs to be stretched to the same ratio to be effective. With that said; doesn't that translate to the same amount of power?

I think it's kind of "a consultant's answer" - "it depends".

You can always add more bands instead of having a longer band like a roller does, but for a given amount of power, a roller will shoot with less recoil. The power any gun can have is determined by the shooter's ability, in terms of strength and technique, to load the bands. That's why conventional guns need several bands instead of just one big, thick one. With a multi stage roller you can cock a more powerful band, but only to a point, since the limit is still the shooter. Enter the lever action roller. More complications, but now you can load the max of your ability on the top, and get a mechanical advantage on the bottom. After all is said and done, it's about like 2.5 bands on a comparable conventional gun. so, you could take the same gun, put 3 bands on it, and the main differences would be a "better" sight picture due to 1 band instead of 3 (some would argue they actually prefer 3), and a softer recoil. For a shooter who practiced with both, there probably wouldn't be a noticeable difference in loading time. The time it takes me to load my 48" lever action rg is so close to what it takes to load a 2 banded conventional gun that it's academic if there at all.

Are those 2 advantages enough to want to screw with the additional work to build one, or the additional cost to buy one? Depend on what you want, and what you can afford. I don't see rollers taking over, nor do I see them going away. There will be tweaks that make them better, but a conventional wood gun gets the job done easily and simply, and to me the other guns are just adaptations to fit special situations or preferences.

After all is said and done, whatever gun is being used, I think it's still more about the Indian than it is the arrow.

Spearfishing styles and gun types are a little like religion to me..

I seek one that works for me, and practice the parts of others that fill my heart and dinner plate.

Cheers, Don

"Bill, aren't conventional spearguns built to handle a certain power configuration without being adversely affected by recoil? As long as the recoil doesn't affect the shaft trajectory, I like it. It tells me the gun is shooting hard and fast, whether the bands need to be shortened or changed. With the roller I feel like there's too much time before the shaft leaves the gun, almost enough time for changes in my grip and arm position to affect the aim."

Not trying to be cute, here, Dan, but spearguns are built the way the builders build them. Very few, if any, production guns are overpowered, but it's done with custom and home built guns all the time. Whether inaccuracy is due to overpowering or the shooter anticipating the recoil, is pretty hard to determine. It sounds like you just like the way a conventional gun feels and shoots, so like a favorite shotgun or set of gulf clubs, you shoot better with it. The first time I shot Tin Man's carbon fiber gun it felt so natural it was like I had been shooting it for years, yet the gun wasn't like anything I had ever shot before. To me, the feel of a roller is very natural, so most of the time that's what I shoot - with the exception of that cf gun! :laughing:

Different strokes for different folks - great to have choices! :thumbsup2:

diversity is the spice of life

Quote from Wood Guy

"Bill, aren't conventional spearguns built to handle a certain power configuration without being adversely affected by recoil? As long as the recoil doesn't affect the shaft trajectory, I like it. It tells me the gun is shooting hard and fast, whether the bands need to be shortened or changed. With the roller I feel like there's too much time before the shaft leaves the gun, almost enough time for changes in my grip and arm position to affect the aim."

Not trying to be cute, here, Dan, but spearguns are built the way the builders build them. Very few, if any, production guns are overpowered, but it's done with custom and home built guns all the time. Whether inaccuracy is due to overpowering or the shooter anticipating the recoil, is pretty hard to determine. It sounds like you just like the way a conventional gun feels and shoots, so like a favorite shotgun or set of gulf clubs, you shoot better with it. The first time I shot Tin Man's carbon fiber gun it felt so natural it was like I had been shooting it for years, yet the gun wasn't like anything I had ever shot before. To me, the feel of a roller is very natural, so most of the time that's what I shoot - with the exception of that cf gun! :laughing:

Different strokes for different folks - great to have choices! :thumbsup2:

Good thoughts bill. I am excited to try a roller

Quote from Dan

I think the freediver vs scuba diver factor may have bearing on this preference. If I remember right Bill you don't freedive? Just trying to keep things in perspective. One of the reasons post about this is to help guys not make a costly .

i just misread ''wrong speargun choice'' as WONG speargun

Dan have you ever shot twice on the same breath hold? Have you ever been on a school and really wanted to reload fast and dumb shit kept going wrong, like shark tab catches the wishbone? line under the spear, line jumps the muzzle....?

I have never shot twice. With a pole spear yea, but not with a gun. And I have had a million annoying issues with my gun, which is very minimal.

I just don't write off the roller because it is slower to reload. I shore dive a lot and I lug my 120 on the banks board. If I could, and hope to soon, have a 90cm gun that shoots like a 110 that is amazing. For shore dives in less than 25', I can't imagine a better hunting device

Lunker seeing that you live in the States is a pneumatic an option especially for 25ft ?

Quote from Dan

Another point you missed is that at a given length a one band roller will not shoot any better than the same length gun with two bands. Therein lies the hype.

I have not got to fire a roller yet. But as a design challenge they are fascinating devices.
In my humble opinion, a multi band roller is kind of silly. BUT, a single band, very short gun has a great potential to be the perfect weapon for many. Halibut gun, in the surfline, at night, poor viz. Really nice to have a short ass gun with only one band to load.....

Now, converting a cheap pipe gun with a roller muzzle add on, that seems like a bad idea. I don't know why anyone would do that.

I can't wait to get a roller. Fad, Hype, propaganda... whatever. It looks fun.

can you have a single band roller gun pretensioned , meaning , at the muzzle the band is partially pulled using the lower notches below the gun . now instead of releasing the tension of the lower band to load it you leave it taught , then use a tool like an ice hook to pull the wishbone to the rear notch of the spear without touching the lower band . this may mimic a pneumatic gun [ full length acceleration ] and even tough you will have the same downsides of the pneumatic you should also have the upsides like '' relatively '' quick reloading .

Quote from Dan

I think the freediver vs scuba diver factor may have bearing on this preference. If I remember right Bill you don't freedive? Just trying to keep things in perspective. One of the reasons I post about this is to help guys not make a costly wrong speargun choice.

I'm trying to understand what that has to do with rollers vs conventional guns, and soft recoil vs hard recoil, but I'm having trouble getting my head around it....but then, I've had a few cocktails so maybe I wouldn't understand it if you explained it! Why would freedivers prefer one over the other? If so, would freedivers prefer a roller or a conventional? Seems to me they use both, and their preference doesn't have anything to do with whether they freedive or SCUBA, but I could be wrong.

Roller guns are a great tool to demonstrate how unnecessary ET's are on shafts with balanced rubber power.
A roller is pulling the shaft right down to the last couple inch's of barrel, OMG:@what is supporting the overhanging shaft and having it hold it's spline cycle during band pull. The shaft is still trying to push it's nose through a medium that is 784 times denser than air @ sea level.

I hunt in a fluid environment, I am moving, the sea is moving, the fish can move in a split second. There is a millisecond when my brain sends a signal to my trigger finger that all is alined for a shaft launch. I want a shaft that leaves the ''moving'' launch platform as fast as possible, at that moment in time that my brain connected the dots. I don't want a platform ( barrel) influencing/ touching the shaft tail any longer than necessary. Hold a long column of wood out in front of you, have a friend touch the end with a cigarette, very little force will steer the column your grasping....leverage.

Euro guys love rollers because they have been hunting with 1 band guns most of their life, as they used their stalking skills to get close to fish, and make head shots. The extra power stroke of the roller gives them a bit more range on fish that ''know'' how long a gun is.

Rollers are fun to Flect around with, I have three, 2 are ancient, 1 has had it's roller removed, as I shoot it with 2 bands the last 25 years.

Cheers, Don

Yeah. Rhetorical. Just thinking about the application for the technology

Quote from Wood Guy

I think it's kind of "a consultant's answer" - "it depends".

Thanks for the explanation and your perspective. Most everything said is all stuff I have already heard. I guess my real problem is understanding how one long band equates to 2.5 short bands. I didn't do a very good job of asking the question in my post. It may sound silly, I know I should "get it", but there is something in my mind that just doesn't seem to agree.

Like most things for me, the best way to gain any real perspective on something is to experience it. I would like the opportunity to shoot a roller gun someday.