Nautilus NS carbon fins AKA Leader fins

    Nautilus has been making noise lately to get their NS "carbon" fins attention Nautilus NS Series Carbon Blades and Pockets New Batch!!! - Spearboard Spearfishing Community At an affordable $199.99 they appear attractive to those looking to upgrade to their first carbon blades.


    It's important that divers know what they're buying, especially when there's an attempted deception. Nautilus blades are Leader blades LeaderFins.com with a different sticker. This in itself wouldn't be a big deal, rebranding is normal in the industry. The foul as I see it is that along side the "NS" blades, Nautilus is selling the exact same blades at the lower price of $175 correctly labeled as Leader Nautilus Spearfishing – Miami Dive Shop » LeaderFins Carbon Steriofins Wave Blades Fins. The only reason I see for this is an attempt to confuse a potential buyer into thinking that the NS fins are more expensive and better than the Leader fins, in reality they are one and the same.


    Because Speardiver carbon blades are more expensive Speardiver carbon fins roll call I'm often faced with the same questions from guys who know about the Nautilus blades; why are Speardiver carbon blades more expensive? How are they better than the Nautilus blades? So I decided to post the answers in this thread.


    The cost of Leader / Nautilus carbon blades is cheaper than any other blades on the market period. You don't need to simply believe me, go to LeaderFins.com and see for yourself. The retail price of the carbon blades is 90 euro. The low retail cost reflects lower production costs, which is in part due to low labor costs (the blades are made in Estonia), as well as materials and production process.


    Leader fiberglass blades are not even worth talking about, they are so slow/have no snap, little if at all better than good plastic long fins. Leader carbon blades are fiberglass blades with two layers of carbon fiber, one on the top surface and one on the bottom surface. This makes Leader blades have the outward appearance of a carbon blade, and at the same time be durable but heavier and slow/with little snap/less reactive as compared to quality carbon fins. For those who don't know it's the lightness and tendency of the carbon blade to very quickly snap back to straight after being flexed, that makes the performance difference. Someone who has no experience with carbon blades, and is given the opportunity to flex and release one kind of blade alongside another, will immediately become aware of the difference.


    Another important aspect of the blades is rails. Rails are the system which secures the blade in foot pockets. For an explanation of rails see this thread Fin blade rails, water channeling and tendon rails explanation Leader / NS blades have an inferior rail system with water channeling rails running the length of the blade. Then cutting down the height of the water channeling rails in the area where the foot pocket tendons grip. The resulting small rails appear like they would do the job of tendon rails, but in reality because they're not specifically designed for this purpose the rails are too thick to fit in the tendon slot properly. This results in poor grip of the foot pocket tendons over the blade, and the probability of the blade popping out of the tendons during a powerful fin stroke.


    All that said, Leader offers decent entry level blades in their "carbon" blades, which are definitely superior to any plastic longfins. As such I decided to add them to the Spearfishing Store product line, with improvement in some aspects and no misinformation.


    Stiffeness: Medium only. Soft from Leader are very slow and provide poor propulsion. Hard are stiff like boards.
    Color: Conventional carbon pattern only. The new Algae camo carbon blades include a layer of the colored stuff which is pretty but slows down an already slower blade.
    Rails: Original Leader water channeling rails, with Speardiver foot pocket rails installed to match exactly the length of the tendons for the foot pocket you are using.


    FinTendonRailSchematic-1.jpg


    Logo: Leader logo, no logo, a mermaid, whatever you want. Except Speardiver logo :)


    IMG_4082.jpg


    Price: $160
    Caveat: Don't ask me any more questions about these blades.

    Man Dan, you must be really feeling the pinch from Nautilus to go bashing them like this. Its common knowledge that NS blades are Leaderfins, and if you ask Andrew he will gladly tell you that they are leaderfins with no problem. In fact me and you had this discussion about a year and a half ago and you didnt feel the urge to go bashing them then...


    You say rebranding is normal in the industry and dont see it as a foul. But in the next sentence you say that its not OK for someone to rebrand, and sell it at a higher price under their brand? Isn't that what making money is about?


    Who are you to tell someone what price to sell their stuff at?




    Quote from Dan

    Caveat: Don't ask me any more questions about these blades.


    and this doesn't help the situation either...You're gonna go bash someone publicly and then tell people not to ask you any questions? At least andrew is open about his source and what type of blades hes selling.

    It's not common knowledge, otherwise Nautilus fins would not be advertised as they are on their website and on spearboard. I also know this from talking to guys who are interested in Speardiver fins and asked me about the Nautilus fins. For you to state that it's common knowledge and speak for Andrew is absurd. Make those statements on SB and see if he'll be happy about the truth being revealed publicly. In any case you are confirming that what I said in this thread is true.


    I'm not feeling "the pinch", I feel irked because of the attempted deception. If I was feeling the pinch I would not offer the Leader blades at the price I think they're really worth, $160.


    Your comprehension sucks. I said there's nothing wrong with re-branding, there is something wrong with advertising the same product at the same time under two different names. A differentiation who's goal is to funnel buyers to the "better" more expensive product, it's called bait and switch. This would be obvious to anyone looking at the Nautilus website after reading this thread. The click to buy button is there for anyone who's not in "the know" which you claim to be. They'd be paying $25 more for a blue sticker.

    You seem more upset about my post. Is it because I hit a sore spot in your business practices and you realize that your logic is flawed?


    I absolutely see the difference in performance, but I also see the difference in price and the leaderfins were all I was able to afford at the time. It is common knowledge and has been posted on spearboard. Here is an example of such a post Good deal on carbon fins? - Page 3 - Spearboard Spearfishing Community


    And for you to assume that I speak for Andrew is further evidence of your flawed logic. I said that if you ask andrew, which I have personally, I'm sure that he would admit that his blades are leaderfins. Did I say anything along the lines of: "Andrew says ____________"? No.


    You were not the one who informed me of the fact that the NS blades were leaderfins. I actually showed andrew my leaderfins and he started to look into them more. You still havn't answered my question about why it recently bothered you that the NS blades were leaderfins and not a year ago when you found out about it.


    I'm sure you'll probably ban me from this board for some unjustified cause, but whatever.

    :rolleyes1:


    This is where you spoke for your friend Andrew.

    Quote from fishingdude

    Its common knowledge that NS blades are Leaderfins, and if you ask Andrew he will gladly tell you that they are leaderfins with no problem.

    And just now you did it again.

    Quote from fishingdude

    I actually showed andrew my leaderfins and he started to look into them more.

    And you're confirming what I'm saying.

    Quote from fishingdude

    I absolutely see the difference in performance

    I haven't seen or used the Leader fins, but in concept, it is a good way to make cheap, effective fins. When you flex fins, the majority of the load is carried on the surface (the same reason that I-beams are used in construction- the interior is basically space filler). They're putting the material that will give the best response at that point. My guess is that they'll perform as well or better than any fiberglass fin with a similar durability as FG. From a strength standpoint, interior carbon is a waste, but it's "responsiveness"still adds to the performance.


    All that being said, my last fins were a pair of Pursuit carbon's a little over a year ago (my next pair of fins will be Pursuits). I asked to have them custom fit into Beuchat pockets, which Dan agreed to do - and he did very well. My wife was the one that took them to him, and she was amazed that he was able to maintain his composure while making the modifications. :D (I wouldn't be surprised if he now requires a 4 figure modification fee along with a liter of rum).


    If that's not enough of a promo, how about the fact that I was shooting hogfish last week in 95' while wearing a 5mm wetsuit (which makes you about as hydrodynamic as a manatee).

    Thanks Matt, I blush when I read such praise :)


    Actually the Leader carbon blades perform like decent fiberglass blades. A high quality fiberglass blade is produced with better consistency, to ideal dimensions rather than the dimensions being dictated by the maximum number of blades that can be cut out of a sheet, has a better and more precise flex profile, is more durable, lighter, and simply outperforms.

    There is more than just a little satisfaction in knowing that you just pulled the trigger at 90+ feet, can pull the fish far enough away from the bottom that it can't hole up, and carry your 5mm bloated self and gun up to the surface while maintaining a relaxed kick that isn't wasting your O2.


    The best part is, you know it was a good dive, when the fish you just shot is suffering from a case of the bends so badly that bubbles are coming out from under the scales. :thumbsup2:

    I did a google search for Nautilus fins. One of the first results was this post on HSD confirming what I said about the blade rails not doing a good job of securing the blade to the footpocket tendons Hawaii Skin Diver • View topic - Nautilus Carbon Fiber Fins

    Quote

    Only thing is the side rails sometimes come off. I have been meaning to put clips or silicone on the footpocket rails but never got around to it. I just snap it back into place and keep going.

    When you buy the leader blades from Spearfishing Store, the original rails will be replaced with Speardiver rails and that will solve the problem.

    I have a pair of the leaderfin carbon blades and fiberglass blades in hard.
    I beat the living hell out of the carbons and they still function great. I've never dove over 70ft with the leaderfins but you can most definetly tell they are not a "high performance" fin when you are kicking into current or starting back up at 60ft.
    Now my specialfins hybrid professionals on the other hand are sweet as ~`~`~`~`. They also cost a ton more.
    Over the years I really have noticed that you do get what you pay for when it comes to fins.

    ok sorry if i missed it somewhere reading but... is there more to it than an extra $88 for rails that will not fall off your blade, and the slight increase in durability due to materials....or is there actual people who have used both and can provide some strong points as to why they PERFORM better?'



    Nautilus being my go to local shop..and this my go to forum...i am having a really hard time deciding... money is not a problem but i don't want to later try someones nautilus blades and be like yo.... y are mine better?


    Thanks in advance
    -AL

    I purchased NS carbons with their foot pockets this past summer and have several dives on them. Coming from plastic fins they are amazing, but I can't compare them to any other carbon fins as I this is my first and only pair I've worn.


    Al, I think Dan provided a pretty undeniably strong point for why one performs better then the other (and costs more). One set is not actually carbon fiber blades, but instead fiberglass/carbon fiber composite blades with an outer layer of carbon fiber and an inner layer of fiberglass.


    The physical properties of the materials that make up the blade define the limits of its performance, and its no secret that carbon fiber as a material out preforms fiberglass in most of the factors that a freediver seeks. Most people if given the choice between fiberglass blades with carbon fiber veneers, or carbon fiber blades would pick the latter. Wouldn't you?


    Im not sure you will find very many people besides Dan with direct comparitive experience of both types of blades. But in my opinion the points he makes in his first post clearly point out where your money is going (actual carbon fiber blades, and a high quality rail system)


    Another thing to consider is that Dan is now selling essentially the same blades for $160. You could probably pay him a visit and compare both blades directly in hand if you are really curious about the difference.

    Edited 3 times, last by Reefchief ().

    The rails in themselves are not expensive once you're past the design aspect. What makes a fin with good rails more expensive is the labor. See the link I posted to the rails thread to understand why manufacturers look for a shortcut when it comes to rails. Many of you have been to my shop and seen me put together blades, rails, and footpockets. You know that it's time consuming. The result is you not worrying about a blade popping out of the footpocket, water channeling rails of correct height and stiffness that stabilize the fin properly and protect the edges, and in general fins that are aesthetically pleasing with the water channeling rails starting where the footpocket tendons end.



    Al, Lets pretend the blade popping out of your footpocket at 90ft due to bad rails is not enough reason. I have both Speardiver and Leader / Nautilus blades here. As I said before even a person with not much experience in carbon blades will be able to see the difference when they're side by side. Also I sell the Leader blades $40 cheaper than Nautilus with good rails. Other than that read this thread http://spearfishing.world/fins…arbon-fins-roll-call.html .

    I sat with Dan when he built my fins and it is an awesome practice that he has perfected, but it is still highly time consuming. I think I recall it taking upwards of an hour, including trying on different footpockets and then Dan actually assembling them. I've had mine for about 15 months and dive wreck/reef/bluewater and I personally would not bother experimenting with other carbon fins from this point on. My Pursuit fins were money very well spent, and if/when I wear them out I'll have Dan build me another set.

    Quote from yardsale

    Over the years I really have noticed that you do get what you pay for when it comes to fins.


    I used to believe this for the most part as well. I had a rich friend send me a pair of C4 Mustang 3-40's
    that I wore a few times. I loved looking at them in the Dive Den....thought they might be a chick magnet.:laughing:.....but after getting Dan's C-90 meds and hammering the Shite out of them on shore dives and deep water at the Butterfly Bank they were sold to fund a vintage speargun.


    Your welcome to take my Speardiver fins for a spin before the Mud craw begins.;)


    Thanks for your help with the training, I already lost 5 lbs.


    Cheers, Don

    "Great mother ocean brought forth all life, it is my eternal home'' Don Berry from Blue Water Hunters.


    Spearfishing Store the freediving and spearfishing equipment specialists.

    Edited once, last by Don Paul: SP ().

    Hey Dan,


    I'd like to pick up a pair of those cheap blades for my omer pockets to leave behind in Curaçao, so I don't have to drag those big ol' things along every time I go down there... However, I noticed you don't have them in the store yet... I'd like to take them when Emil and I go down there next month. Let me know if that is possible...


    Tks,


    G

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