Help w/Fish ID, please

    My buddy and I were out commercial spearing today and he shot a snapper that neither of us are familiar with. The same is true among all the fisherman at the co-op that buys our fish. We're usually shooting either mutton, cubera, dog, hog, or mangrove/grey snappers. To our eyes, this one has the coloring of a dog snapper on the body of a cubera. I know that there are hybrids out there, but I couldn't find any info in my FL/Caribbean fish ID books. So, any help is greatly appreciated.


    Thanks, Rick

    Hybrid is the first thing that came to my mind.


    Here's a Cubera Mangrove hybrid.

    Quote from Shei Daye

    Awhile back Bill Crawford turned in a beautiful fish to the IUSA for a record which looked like a giant mangrove at 29 pounds. In that case, it had the tooth patch of a mangrove, but it had the scale count of a cubera, and it had the lower teeth of a mangrove, but it had the upper fangs of a cubera. (By the way, the hook and line record for a mangrove is 17 pounds.) It was very weird, so in the end, the IUSA relied on tissue samples that were sent to a lab. It was determined that that particular fish was a hybrid. I guess in rare cases they can cross breed. The IGFA (for hook and line records) has also received a few hybrids over the years.


    Yeah, it's an amazingly bright orange and red, weighed 6.7 kgs. He was about 80' down hanging out near a small ledge.


    I see that there is a cubera/mangrove hybrid on the IUSA records site, but this one is not similar. I have more photos if anyone is interested in seeing a certain part of the fish.

    First thing I thought was dog, but I have never heard of a dog hybrid... amazing catch.

    A bad day at sea is better than a good day in the boatyard
    George Steele

    I always wondered how these hybrids came to be. I doubt it's like a big female cubera is approached by a bold little mangrove saying, "hey baby....you're hot....". :laughing:


    It's probably a mass spawn of both species going on near each other and the currents help combine eggs and sperm being released in a mass pescado orgy of sorts.


    I sent the pics to an ichthyologist I know in Hawaii. If he's not too busy I hope he'll get back to me with his take on it. He's IDed over 600 new species of fish in his career.

    Don't know for sure but the IUSA biologist, Mark Steele, is going to review the photos. We followed all protocols to submit a record - certified scale, measurements, etc. With luck, Valente may end up with his third record.

    Not sure how long it will take. I sent the other pictures. It'd be great…and lucky :D…if it's a new record. Good luck. I'll post any information I get.


    Hank:


    Thanks. Not sure of the parent species without having the specimen to count scales and gill rakers. I will send to two people who will be most likely to know the parents.


    Aloha, Jack

    Got this reply form Sheri... "To summarize, the process to identify a hybrid can be quite complex. There is an outside chance that one of Dr. Steele's colleagues will take the time to try and identify it. But I have to warn you, even if he agrees to do it, it still may not be "identifiable". In any case, if his colleague does agree, we would ask you to mail a frozen sample of tissue."


    Here is his quote to her: "DNA is probably the only reliable way of figuring out what it is, but that relies on enough of the DNA work having already been done on possible parent species. I'm not sure if that work has been done or not."


    So, we will continue to keep everyone posted on the results. And Hank, we appreciate what you're doing to figure this thing out!:thumbsup2:

    Quote from Pachamama

    Got this reply form Sheri... "To summarize, the process to identify a hybrid can be quite complex. There is an outside chance that one of Dr. Steele's colleagues will take the time to try and identify it. But I have to warn you, even if he agrees to do it, it still may not be "identifiable". In any case, if his colleague does agree, we would ask you to mail a frozen sample of tissue."


    Here is his quote to her: "DNA is probably the only reliable way of figuring out what it is, but that relies on enough of the DNA work having already been done on possible parent species. I'm not sure if that work has been done or not."


    So, we will continue to keep everyone posted on the results. And Hank, we appreciate what you're doing to figure this thing out!:thumbsup2:


    If you really want this to be a record, freeze the fish.


    Daryl Wong shot a hybrid jack in Hawaii a couple or three years ago. It was a cross between a white and a blue ulua (sorry I don't have the scientific names) If I remember correctly Dr John (Jack) Randall confirmed it was indeed a hybrid and I believe would have been a record but Jack needed some tissue or something...... but Daryl had eaten the fish. :laughing: He should have frozen it as I recollect. Hold onto it until we see what the experts say.

    Well, the fish was sold through the co-op yesterday, not a big deal. We'll continue to see where this goes but imagine that it might take a while. Luckily, it's been quite fishy lately and we're bringing in a good amount of black grouper, mutton snapper, cuberas, and amberjack. ;)

    It has a caudal fin and pigment of dogs although many are more pinkish. I would bet cubera or mangrove and dog. But we have a spot here where muttons, dogs and cuberas all hang out together. If it's mutton and dog, then teeth seem to be a dominant gene.


    Pretty cool whatever it is. If you get another one, freeze it. Maybe Randall can even tell us what to look for as far as counting spines and scales etc etc…

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