Roller spearguns

    Do not forget that performance of rollers depends a lot from the quality of the rolls and pretension of the bands.To the double banded normal gun you aply double direct force to the spear and it still performes worce.I think its fair to compare single to single or double to double.
    I take a bet that I will load a single roller twice fatster than a double banded normal gun.Who is in?:thumbsup2:

    This iz our military pool where gather to train in the weekends.Videos shot by friends of mine
    70 sm single roller,14 mm bands and 100 sm by 6 mm light shaft VS heavy double banded 100-110 thick spears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjuK2Ni0jxM


    Single 80 sm roller 16 mm band,shaft 110 sm by 6,5 VS heavy double banded 110 with 7 mm spear.Almost the same at 5 meters,a little advantage for the classic gun due to the heavy spear.But you cant compare the dimenshions of the guns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxPPGtxulwM


    Same 2 guns VS long single pipeguns.Roller is in the center
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsbZ-X-GYg


    At 3 meters the roller was beating the big classic gun due to the verry high speed although the light spear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilJAPyxQ_ZA


    At 5 meters almost equal becouse the light spear loosing speed quicker.My friends roller's are small but with PROPER tephlon rolls and diameter.


    I leave to your imagination what will be tha results if guns and shafts was equal sizes:toast:

    The bands are the same diameter, 5/8". I'll measure their length tonight.


    I was sitting with my back against the pool wall and held the loaded guns in each hand at my side with the butts against the wall. I tried to pull the triggers simultaneously.


    Dan, I wasn't going to do a penetration test. I assume with the same weight shaft, the penetration should be proportional to the velocity ratio. Penetration is really momentum which is mass times velocity.


    As to recoil, they seemed similar to me in strength. But the double banded gun had some muzzle flip, the shaft actually shot out of the water on the recoil test with the Wong MGS.


    C

    Quote from seal

    I think its fair to compare single to single or double to double.


    You should consider the fact that a single roller system can use 2 sets of bands with 2 separate wishbones. Therefore, a double set of rollers can have 4 separate bands with 4 wishbones total.


    Koah spearguns just featured their new roller guns at the expo. All teak wood and using one circular band with big enough anchor points on the bottom of the gun to fit the actual rubber power band, instead of the small line anchor meant to only hold a wishbone like 90% of rollers use today...


    :thumbsup2:

    Relax & Go Spearfishing

    Edited once, last by Chase ().


    Cool, but seal was saying above that it would be fair to compare a twin band roller to a twin band standard. What I saw, and that's open to interpretation, was a single roller out performing a double banded gun.

    A bad day at sea is better than a good day in the boatyard
    George Steele

    Quote from seal

    I think its fair to compare single to single or double to double.

    Confused and trying hard to confuse others.

    Quote from Chase

    You should consider the fact that a single roller system can use 2 sets of bands with 2 separate wishbones. Therefore, a double set of rollers can have 4 separate bands with 4 wishbones total.

    Correct.

    Quote from Chuckd

    Dan, I wasn't going to do a penetration test. I assume with the same weight shaft, the penetration should be proportional to the velocity ratio. Penetration is really momentum which is mass times velocity.

    Thanks again Charlie for taking the time to do this. You are of course correct about the velocity being enough of an indicator. The problem is getting the guns firing at exactly the same time which results in misinterpreted results like George.


    I can reason through it though, especially because of the 2nd slow motion segment. Even though the roller shot first, both shafts appear to travel at the same speed or at least very close. It is evident that the roller IS NOT more powerful than a conventional speargun of the same length. Which supports what I said at the beginning of the thread. I actually expected it to have a little less power, but probably this is not a significant enough difference to be visible. Where is the maximum power anchoring point on the bottom of your roller?

    Quote from Dude george

    Cool, but seal was saying above that it would be fair to compare a twin band roller to a twin band standard. What I saw, and that's open to interpretation, was a single roller out performing a double banded gun.


    The "single" roller is actually using one set of rollers and 2 separate power bands with 2 separate wishbones. Let's think here gents, how can we compare a roller utilizing 2 power bands super long to a standard gun with one circular power band. It seems obvious to me that this is apples to oranges, but you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.


    The video to me looked like the roller was slightly faster, even with the video slowed down it was marginal. Show it in real time and you'd be far fetched to say that you could notice it. I think a chronograph of some kind would be more accurate than our eyes..


    George, a gun with 2 separate sets of rollers houses 4 bands total. Thats like comparing your Koah 120 euro w/ 2 power bands to your big Koah bluewater w/ 4 power bands. Both of which are also firing different shafts as well. I'd say Chuckd did as fair as a comparison as he could with these guns. Adding an additional set of rollers would not be a fair comparison, as thats really a big bluewater gun for large pelagics and certainly would be overkill on the reef...


    Ah, what do I know though.. I think that a double banded gun is perfectly fine for the reef while others contest that they need 3..



    BTW Georgie and Steve, here's a double band gun shooting a doggie, a fish you both claimed needs 3 bands. The shooter is Michael Takach and shoots more fish, and bigger fish than the 3 of us combined w/ his Riffe Euro 130 w/ 2 x 16mm bands @ 32". Google him. :toast:


    Well I thought the discussion was if a roller is more powerful than a standard, but having zero experience with them I am listening to what everyone is saying. Chase soon as you can I would like to see the roller pictures.
    Again! Talented guys can kill a fish by looking at it the wrong way, but that's NOT THE POINT! When I first started shooting pelagics I stoned my first two wahoo, both over 40lb. Luck plays a part, never did it again [emoji6] .
    What I said is if you want to take ego out of the equation and generate the most chances at big fish with the highest success rate for species that don't sit on the bottom and watch you, you need a bigger gun. Also if you want to shoot big reef/midwater smart fish with more chances of landing the fish, a bigger gun with two bands or three is best. We have a saying here in Antigua "you will learn" . I don't care what videos those guys put up, the truth is with that equipment MANY get off and die, and many more shots are not taken because of how close you have to get, dems de facts.

    A bad day at sea is better than a good day in the boatyard
    George Steele

    Not to derail the topic, but I really think it boils down to the shooter. Marco has the ability to get very close to fish and land some incredible fish with his 110 Euro. George, you have the ability to make those long range shots and land some awesome fish. You can check out Michael Takach's YouTube channel, the riffe euro 130 double band is all he uses and lands a lot of fish.


    Is a roller necessary? Absolutely not. Will it make you any better of a diver & spearo? Absolutely not. I don't see rollers as the wave of the future either, they fill a niche for a specific market. Conventional spearguns just work. Why fix it?


    It boils back to the oldest argument of spearos landing nice fish with primitive gear. Do we really need laser guns in the future? :laughing3:


    (Standing by for the bashing)

    Relax & Go Spearfishing

    Quote from Chase

    The "single" roller is actually using one set of rollers and 2 separate power bands with 2 separate wishbones. Let's think here gents, how can we compare a roller utilizing 2 power bands super long to a standard gun with one circular power band. It seems obvious to me that this is apples to oranges, but you're certainly entitled to your beliefs.


    So, I think that this is where most people disagree with each other, so I will explain on view.


    One group thinks that since there are physically 2 bands and two wishbones it is equal to two circular bands each with a wishbone, the other group disagrees.


    Personally I disagree, I will try (again) explain why. I do agree that physically the roller has two bands and two wishbones but that is where my agreement ends. When you study a system it is important to look at the way the forces are applied and not it's resting status.


    Lets start with the circular band, when it is pulled back it is effectively, from the view of the force(s) released from it, split into two (segments). Each side/segment behaves (the key word here) independently from the other (if the centre pressure point is in the real center of course). You could therefore compare it to a euro style band setup (two bands with screw on tips and a wishbone) that has a useful band length on each side equal to the circular bands. A two circular band speargun has 4 segments like a 2 "band" euro setup (not sure such a setup exists as the head would be big).


    The roller does not have this behavior because of the pulley which transfers the force on one side to the other. Since both sides exert a force and the pulley transfers that force, each side the system behaves like one side (segment) of the one circular band setup or the euro style setup. Also, the second wishbone is a convenience, you could permanently attach the bottom anchorage point and the speargun would still function as designed. A "single" roller gun therefore has only 2 segments, each being roughly twice the length of the equivalent (in barrel length) conventional speargun's segment.


    No bashing from me, sensible talk from you.

    A bad day at sea is better than a good day in the boatyard
    George Steele


    Here's where I disagree. A better diver, no. A better Spearfisherman, YES! And this is because of the less recoil. If your form is sloppy, like a bent elbow or weak grip or shooting sideways or hip shooting, the decreased recoil improves accuracy. From my experience, my roller guns( I shoot three different ones) have the same or slightly less power than my Wong MGS, but are definitely more accurate, IN MY HANDS.


    I shoot my 57" roller gun 90% of the time. I'm most used to it. But when I shoot on scuba, a roller is too slow to reload. So I switch to my Wong MGS free shaft gun. I usually end up only loading a single band because the recoil from the two bands makes me very inaccurate. I'm sure with better form and a stronger grip, I could adjust to it. But I only scuba a few times a year.


    Anyway, I'm satisfied with my test video. The roller velocity is very close to the double band gun and that's all I need to know. I've shot 50lb AJ at 20" with my rollers no problem. And it locks out 2 wraps of line. And it shoots like a laser beam!


    If anyone wants to shoot one, come on over to Clearwater. As soon as it's calm out, I'll be diving as much as possible getting ready for States and Nationals this year.


    C

    A lot of interesting discussion since Chuck posted the video. (Thanks, Chuck, for taking the time to do that)


    From what I saw, there was not a substantial difference in the performance of the two guns. A chronograph would give more accurate results but I don't unless someone has one probably not worth getting one.


    The penetration test won't show anything and more than likely will add more confusion. Small variations in the shaft can cause big differences in the penetration. But as a few people mentioned, penetration will be proportional to velocity.


    As for one band two band red band blue band it doesn't really matter as Gabe mentioned. The key is how much force is being applied to the shaft and over what distance it acts. I would very much like to see what the difference in force is. If they are making equal power then the roller should be noticeably easier to load. (In terms of force)


    Quality of the rollers will make a difference but it should be relatively small unless the rollers are terrible.

    Quote from Dan

    Confused and trying hard to confuse others.Correct.Thanks again Charlie for taking the time to do this. You are of course correct about the velocity being enough of an indicator. The problem is getting the guns firing at exactly the same time which results in misinterpreted results like George.


    I can reason through it though, especially because of the 2nd slow motion segment. Even though the roller shot first, both shafts appear to travel at the same speed or at least very close. It is evident that the roller IS NOT more powerful than a conventional speargun of the same length. Which supports what I said at the beginning of the thread. I actually expected it to have a little less power, but probably this is not a significant enough difference to be visible. Where is the maximum power anchoring point on the bottom of your roller?


    Look,Dan,
    Im not a salesman,Im a builder and a passioned spearo,I have graduated in University and I am not confused at all. I have verry good knollege about many kinds of guns becouse Im interested and I practise a lot.
    Let me explain what most people call single or double band gun,so stop counting bands or ropes-its so simple.The single -you load one wishbone to the spear,the double-you load two wishbones to the spear and aply double force. Anything weird?
    Me and many other people prooved thousand times with videos and penetration tests that:
    1) A simple single small roller beats a even biger double banded gun-prooven.
    2) So obviously same sizes roller and classic, the single roller beats the double banded classic-prooven.
    3)But if we must make a fare test and compare same size and bands roller and same size and bands classic,then the difference is ridiculously big in benefit of the roller-prooven.


    May be there in the ocean spearos dont badly need rollers,becouse there is plenty of fish,but here in Europe we need them,believe me.Ask the champion of our spearfishing federation,he is using some of my guns.


    However,the main reason for me to love rollers is not the ultimate power,but the PLESURE to shoot without recoil a smaller,lighter and faster guns with the same success like the heavy slow big cannons.
    Anybody who doesn't spearfish for plesure,he doesn't need new and better things then.


    Im not confusing people,but oposit-telling obvious prooven facts.Finaly everybody deside for themselves.I just dont understand why is this noise and anger against a simple good fishing tool?

    If you really think that I am misleading people,then I will stop posting in this forum!


    I would hate to see you not participate, I dont think that you in anyway tried to mislead or confuse the discussion, nor did you make it personal as Dan did by saying you were trying to confuse the discussion, I was disturbed by that comment... I know first hand there is allot of bullshit politics in this sport and normally stay away because I rarely understand the undercurrents in my naivety of what is taking place, but a good friend of mine knows you and I know your not after personal gain, you dont have to build guns to survive mister mayor. The tone was not warranted nor the spirit of the comment in my opinion.

    A bad day at sea is better than a good day in the boatyard
    George Steele

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member to leave a comment.

Register a new account
Sign in now