Roller spearguns

Quote from Chuckd

It's not entirely true. A long thin flexible spear with a flopper is slightly more complex than a bullet.

And I've seen guns so overpowered that the shaft comes out oscillating severely which significantly affected it's rate of decrease in velocity.

You can simply set up a grid and do a frame by frame on a video as the shaft leaves to gun to calculate velocity at that point. That's the number we are all looking for. And looking at my video in slow motion, it's very close between my two guns. And that's comparing apples to apples. Same length gun, identical shafts, same band thickness.

C

Except the Wong has at least a partially enclosed track? Not sure how much this slows it down.
Eliminating shaft whip or oscillating comes with a price. The overall point seems to be that accuracy comes at the cost of power and vice versa. On the same gun anyway.

Quote from Chuckd

Roller guns should have enclosed tracks and thicker shafts to take advantage of the higher forces without getting shaft whip.

This sort of a contradiction of what your 1st conclusion said, here you say they have a higher force but the 1st conclusion states the double band gun does, or am I missing something?

Also, did I miss a video? I saw no conclusive test.

Quote from dsculley

I am in Orange Beach AL. If there is someone close by with a roller gun we can shoot it over a chronograph. And the chrono is conclusive. If you have two projectiles of the same mass and form (spears), the one that has the fastest muzzle velocity will have the most energy. This equals flatter trajectory and more penetration. Penetration comes from momentum, or the remaining energy when it reaches the target. If you want to prove it to yourself, go to any ballistics program, select a bullet, then run the program with two different muzzle velocities using the same projectile. The one with the higher muzzle velocity will shoot flatter and retain more energy downrange. Whether you are shooting bullets, arrows or spears the science that predicts performance is called ballistics and is a function of the mass and form of the projectile and the amount of energy that is used to launch the projectile.

Dennis

According to the pool test in Ultimate Spearfishing Magazine thats not always true. They shot a 4 banded american mech bluewater cannon to compare against the others. While it had great penetration, it did not shoot in a flat trajectory and the shot was low of its mark.

The greatest penetration with the flatest trajectory wins. You must have both. If not, you're losing performance regardless of the equations.

I've shot plenty of guns in my day, probably more so than anyone else on in this discussion. You can't compare ballistics from firearms out of water to spearguns underwater. 2 different environments with different variables. A sniper rifle of the right caliber can take out a target over a mile away. What's the max range on speargun? The average shots are between 4-6 meters. So let's stop comparing spearguns to firearms please.

Quote from Wishihadgills

Chase. It's not that penetration tests aren't useful. The problem is there are a lot of variables that influence penetration. Tip shape, sharpness, mass, roughness, variations in density of the target material, angle of penetration and others. If you could control enough of these or take enough test shots that the error is minimized you could get useful information from penetration. It's just a lot more work than simply measuring the velocity.

Xan, that's why the tester is supposed to be using equal components for each gun. Same shaft, bands, barrel length, etc.

Velocity can be drastically reduced based on a lot of variables as well.

Nobody has to believe me or side with me, but it's common sense. I don't need a degree in physics to understand that the deepest penetration with the flattest trajectory accurately hitting the target is the winner.

For example, you could easily get huge velocity with a fast thin 6.5mm shaft. That thing would zing. However, down range that fast thin shaft wont penetrate the skull of a nice thick pargo like a thicker 7.5-8mm shaft would. And at the end of the day thats what matters, not chronograph numbers. That demonstrates true power, which is what the original argument was.

Let's see some penetration tests in a controlled environment :thumbsup2:

Quote from Chase

According to the pool test in Ultimate Spearfishing Magazine thats not always true. They shot a 4 banded american mech bluewater cannon to compare against the others. While it had great penetration, it did not shoot in a flat trajectory and the shot was low of its mark.-------MANY BLUE WATER CANNONS SHOOT A 3/8" OR LARGER SPEAR

The greatest penetration with the flatest trajectory wins. ------TRUE

I've shot plenty of guns in my day, probably more so than anyone else on in this discussion.----WRONG----
UNLESS U WERE BORN BEFORE 1950, ARE A X NRA PISTOL/RIFLE INSTRUCTOR, X IHMSA INSTRUCTOR, WERE SPONSORED BY THOMPSON-CONTENDER, X BATF LICENSED GUN MANUFACTURER, (:)sorry Chase, I couldn't resist THIS bet)
Oh, did I mention doing R/D for Bear, Hoyt, Allen, Jennings, Vic Berger, Mike Fedora, etc, etc, AND currently working on a US Military Base?

You can't compare ballistics from firearms out of water to spearguns underwater.---TRUE--we are comparing SPEED of one spear (out of two different guns) using a chrono.

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hope this helps

Quote from hau

hope this helps

Thats great, much respect. But with those sponsorships did you fight in any wars in an infantry or special operations unit? No disrespect I just want to know. I wasn't shooting targets at competitions for bragging rights. I lived and slept with my guns. Shot everything from pistoles, AR's, MG's, Grenade launchers, Rockets, employed claymore mines in actual defensive position while being over run by taliban. Done raids with DEA(bet you wouldnt guess they were over there) and SAS.. And then I went back for more. Now my body is too banged up to kick in doors, or breach them, so I talk shit with you guys and shoot fish now and I enjoy it almost as much.

My point wasn't to get into a bigger dick competition. I was merely trying to get the point across that firearms do not compare to spearguns (giant sling shots). Equations, ballistics, etc. are cool to talk about in theory, but real world testing is the proof.

Can someone please do the penetration tests so we can end this? This thread has around 3k views :laughing3:

Hau,

Just curious, are you a gunsmith on Ft. Bragg in NC for the green berets? If so we may have met, I've been there quite a few times. They have a sweet indoor range.

Chase

Only time I was at Ft. Bragg was to train Golden Knights and HALO sir.
Thanks for serving :salute:

Quote from Chase

A sniper rifle of the right caliber can take out a target over a mile away. What's the max range on speargun? The average shots are between 4-6 meters. So let's stop comparing spearguns to firearms please.

That has to do with the density of water compared to air not how an object moves threw it. That same "sniper rifle" fired at sea leave will have more drop at a mile than if fired at say 10,000ft elevation because of the difference in air density. I get where your coming from and I to just want to see results be it velocity or penetration

Quote from hau

Thanks for serving :salute:

Same to you Sir :salute:

Quote from Treebilly3

That has to do with the density of water compared to air not how an object moves threw it. That same "sniper rifle" fired at sea leave will have more drop at a mile than if fired at say 10,000ft elevation because of the difference in air density. I get where your coming from and I to just want to see results be it velocity or penetration

You are correct to a certain degree. However people are trying to compare two different objects on two different platforms. A firearm is a complex weapon. A Speargun is simply a metal rod placed on top of a platform, which is locked into some sort of trigger mechanism to control it's release and is propelled by latex rubber bands. A firearm is placing a very small projectile in a precise spot at a very violent rate of speed. A speargun is placing a very large projectile in comparison with more room for error in regards to shot placement. So it's not just the atmosphere that object is moving through, but also the object itself.

That's why IMO these are not fair comparisons and should be removed from the argument.

Quote from Dan

I.. I.. can't believe my ears. Does this mean I was right? :@

I've always felt that way from my personal experience and extensive gun testing.

I probably have shot more fish with roller guns than any other American Spearo.

C

A penetration test is interesting if you are able to remove any angle from the spear. As mentioned above the penetration takes into account several factors. If you had some sort of thick foam (held in place) you could shoot point bank and see how far the spear goes in. You would need something long with enough resistance so the spear does not completely go through.

Quote from grossetti

A penetration test is interesting if you are able to remove any angle from the spear. As mentioned above the penetration takes into account several factors. If you had some sort of thick foam (held in place) you could shoot point bank and see how far the spear goes in. You would need something long with enough resistance so the spear does not completely go through.

Why do you feel that it should be point blank, instead of a realistic distance such as 5 - 6 meters? Just curious, because like I said before a thinner shaft like 6.5mm will have a lot of velocity in the beginning. As it makes its way down range it loses velocity/power pretty quickly. Especially on a dense target like a fishes skull.

Quote from Chase

Why do you feel that it should be point blank, instead of a realistic distance such as 5 - 6 meters? Just curious, because like I said before a thinner shaft like 6.5mm will have a lot of velocity in the beginning. As it makes its way down range it loses velocity/power pretty quickly. Especially on a dense target like a fishes skull.

I agree, it boils down to what you are interested in measuring. If you want to measure as pure of a force as possible you need to exclude as many external factors.

There are many ways of measuring the spearguns for comparison. I feel that a long range test has too many external factors that can change the results and that can be argued upon.

I would never trust a penetration test. The only reason being that I always find myself saying either "I cant believe the spear went clear through that fish" or "I cant believe the flopper didn't even get through". I realize a foam pad and a fish are different but the same rules apply.

A chronograph is the only way to get a definite result. As someone just said on here "two spears with the same mass, the faster one has more power " Simple as that.

Quote from sdeisen

I would never trust a penetration test. The only reason being that I always find myself saying either "I cant believe the spear went clear through that fish" or "I cant believe the flopper didn't even get through". I realize a foam pad and a fish are different but the same rules apply.

A chronograph is the only way to get a definite result. As someone just said on here "two spears with the same mass, the faster one has more power " Simple as that.

So you don't think that a 6.5mm spear shaft will have a higher initial velocity than a 7.5mm spear shaft? A heavier object takes more force to get it going, but once it's going it retains more energy for a longer period of time.

Quote from Chase

So you don't think that a 6.5mm spear shaft will have a higher initial velocity than a 7.5mm spear shaft? A heavier object takes more force to get it going, but once it's going it retains more energy for a longer period of time.

But we are talking about two same size spears.

Quote from Dan

. . . a pair new Speardiver Platinum no hole rubber bands. Just let me know the length and diameter 14mm or 16mm. Keep in mind they're more powerful than the conventional bands with a hole so as not to overpower your gun.

I'm interested to learn more about this!