Blackout while Spearfishing Video

  • .
    I know you and Ben had a beef Dan but this behaviour is petty and doesn't serve the community. I agree with many points you make, but not this.


    I think we can all agree this happens too often, and tragedy is always best avioded when possible, if it serves to cause one diver one day to be actually watching out for his buddy, or someone who was gona go alone, make the effort to have someone to share the experience with amd it saves someones life its worth.


    I try my hardest to be strict on the buddy system, waiting till 2 divers are ready to hit anything deeper than 50, not inviting back anyone that tend to wander after being told, Seeking out and cultivating relationships with like minded people that want the same things, to have fun and above all come back home.


    The statement that buddy diving doesnt work is iresponsible, it behoves us all to make it WORK. Granted sometimes its tough, nearly impossible but ALWAYS do your best
    Do i dive less because I will rarely go it alone now a days.? Yes. Is it more rewarding, hell yeah, High fiving your buddy after stonning a fish, Fending an unseen sark off his 6, or saving a fish of a lifetime as it shakes free still green, oh yeah and saving his life, makes the added efort. Worth it, Theres even people i dont like, that i would take as a wingman imstead of going alone. No one really ever talks about mentoring younger divers, its a great chance to increase the margin of safety, when done correctly. In the last 2 years my crew and I have had no trouble landing our share of nice fish, even under my rules, that by Somes logic should be a handycap.


    An attentive partner and teammate in the water is never and should never be considered or be advertised as a hindrence or crutch, thats just bananas, and the facts prove it.


    A few of my buddies first wahoo amd fish we 2x as rewarding for me than if I had shot them myself. Especially since my deal is, I will take you, amd cover gas, but the 1st fish you shoot is for the boat:)). With 1 upgrade in case the 2nd is nicer;). All the ones after are upto the diver discretion


    Ben shot his first Grouper in the double digits on my boat, I was way more stoked about that fish than had I landed it. For me it would have been very very sad to see him go. Probably would have made me more wary and made it less enjoyable over all

    Edited once, last by Slingador: Spelling, ().


  • Ben shot his first Grouper in the double digits on my boat, I was way more stoked about that fish than had I landed it. For me it would have been very very sad to see him go. Probably would have made me more wary and made it less enjoyable over all


    Slingador, Nice write up from the heart. Be proud of who you are and I love your boat management.

  • The Ama divers don't need no stinking dive computer.:D:diver2:


    True. Nor do their Korean sisters, the Haenyeo.
    And they don't hyperventilate either. Nor have any of them just ever started diving alone. They have progressed slowly, learning from their elders.
    They dive conservatively and they even have measures in place to alert the nearby diver that they surfaced safely (they whistle on their recovery breaths' exhale). It's a very lose buddy system at the most, but that's not the point here;-)


    What struck me, the many times I dove with them over the three long trips I made to cover this story, is how they actually all dove with pretty much all the same tools as I did after having taken freedive courses. Nothing is new, I guess;-).


    Still, they have lost sisters to SWB. They don't have a word for it, nor a word for contractions. They say you die from greed. From forgetting to return.
    One of them said she knew it was about time to head up when she was sucking her mask in trying to breathe (a contraction, I'd say). When she had done that a few times, she'd would ascend. (It worked for her, this is not a rule that can be said to be safely followed).
    (For those interested in seing pics, here is a selection of images I did of the haenyeo: here and here)


    But to come back to computers and courses.
    If dive computers stress you out, then don't wear one. If they don't and you control it and not the other way around, then use it. Easy as that.


    Same with courses. Yes, there is obviously an element of pushing to dive deeper in the world of freediving. But we are also taught to relax, to listen to our bodies, to dive more efficiently, to better EQ, to weight ourselves properly, to buddy up and to perform rescues and to never ever hyperventilate.


    For the freediver who can take the depth element out of all of the above when they go spearing I'd say they are better off than a newbie who buys all his gear online and starts diving alone (as a side note, those numbers must surely be increasing and that's a properly freakish thought).
    Personally, I can dive to about 140 feet in a freediving session and have done +5 min statics. But in spearing, I yet have to take a fish from deeper than 60 feet and my dive times are rarely much longer than 1:45 min.


    So again, like with the computer, if you can't selectively use your freediving knowledge and you only use it to push, then adding spearing to the equation can be lethal, I agree with that.
    But I don't agree that freediving knowledge is per definition, categorically a bad thing in spearing.
    Those skills combined with a load of self-control or going out with experienced spearos definitely beats the going-it-alone approach that I often see promoted.
    It's only a few weeks ago that a spearo on Deeperblue suggested to a 14-y-o. complete newbie to "just buy a gun and get on with it".
    I couldn't have disagreed more strongly - and I even started that way, I was just a lot older, had less craziness in me and yes, had some proper freediving experience by then. Had I had a choice, I would have taken on a sort of apprenticeship in a heartbeat.


    I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no such thing as too much information and one thing I do know, is that different people react to different types of information.
    Dan has beef with Choi and hates the video so it doesn't work on him. I'd still say there are 100s if not possibly 1000s out there who will, at the very least, be reminded that the sport is lethal and perhaps even start to think about how to minimize the risk.
    That's not a small thing and belittling it does nothing for our sport or fellow divers.

  • Seeking out and cultivating relationships with like minded people that want the same things, to have fun and above all come back home.


    The statement that buddy diving doesnt work is iresponsible, it behoves us all to make it WORK. Granted sometimes its tough, nearly impossible but ALWAYS do your best
    Do i dive less because I will rarely go it alone now a days.? Yes. Is it more rewarding, hell yeah, High fiving your buddy after stonning a fish, Fending an unseen sark off his 6, or saving a fish of a lifetime as it shakes free still green, oh yeah and saving his life, makes the added efort. Worth it, Theres even people i dont like, that i would take as a wingman imstead of going alone. No one really ever talks about mentoring younger divers, its a great chance to increase the margin of safety, when done correctly. In the last 2 years my crew and I have had no trouble landing our share of nice fish, even under my rules, that by Somes logic should be a handycap.


    An attentive partner and teammate in the water is never and should never be considered or be advertised as a hindrence or crutch, thats just bananas, and the facts prove it.


    Well said. I always feel much safer diving with a buddy that has the same mindset I have. To reiterate what hank said, a dive watch is just a tool. It cannot and should not be relied upon alone to keep you safe. My dive watch keeps me in check a lot of times, especially when I see a monster fish just after an ascent :attack3: Divers should always listen to their body first and foremost. Some days I feel like I can stay down forever and am completely each dive. Other days I'm looking at my times/depth or whatever wondering why I'm not diving well knowing I can do better, but don't push it because my mind tells me that I'm just having an off day.


    I do love that serene feeling that comes with diving solo, but it doesn't always feel right knowing there's nobody around should something (SWB, shark, etc.) happen.

    Brad

  • Some very nice posts most notably Gecko's. Problem is the sentiments expressed are idealistic. The reality is guys keep dying in greater numbers than ever, even after being exposed to all this information. And guys keep diving alone, even if they think they're diving with a buddy. In the end freedive spearfishing in the US is a solo exercise, no matter what kind of spin you put on it, no matter how stoked you are over a noobs first nice fish. The only true team spearfishing system is how they do it in Cuba, two divers one gun. And I'd rather have it this way. There's nothing like the confidence gained to deal with problems than venturing out on your own and discovering it all for yourself. Accelerated progressions because of freediving courses will continue to equal more deaths. If there's any superficial motivator for me to be more careful, it's the thought of not allowing a thread like this about myself to come to be, wouldn't want to give anyone the satisfaction.

  • Two divers, one gun is a very good idea. Until you shoot that 50 lb cobia that's going crazy and needs another shaft in its head. :laughing:


    And yes, there are too many fatalities. I don't know if it's just that we hear about all of them now because of the internet? or if it's just a lot more divers? But in a way, it's like those crazy wing suit fliers. One in twenty dies. We're not that bad but just the nature of what we do….what is it they say in boxing? A plan is great until you get punched in the face? With us, a plan is great, until a 50 lb cubera or black is sitting right underneath you and you just came up from a dive…..so much for safety at that moment…..

  • Some very nice posts most notably Gecko's. Problem is the sentiments expressed are idealistic. The reality is guys keep dying in greater numbers than ever, even after being exposed to all this information. And guys keep diving alone, even if they think they're diving with a buddy. In the end freedive spearfishing in the US is a solo exercise, no matter what kind of spin you put on it, no matter how stoked you are over a noobs first nice fish. The only true team spearfishing system is how they do it in Cuba, two divers one gun. And I'd rather have it this way. There's nothing like the confidence gained to deal with problems than venturing out on your own and discovering it all for yourself. Accelerated progressions because of freediving courses will continue to equal more deaths. If there's any superficial motivator for me to be more careful, it's the thought of not allowing a thread like this about myself to come to be, wouldn't want to give anyone the satisfaction.

    .

    Going SOLO is the easy choice, But by no means is it mandatory. Claming that it is, is fairly obtuse. The secret safety mojo all the courses claim to bestow, in reality is very simple, at least the parts I think pertain to our community, NEVER dive alone. If. Chosing to do so, be fully aware, death is waiting for the smallest mistake, and the margin of error half.


    The style of diving , I chose to adhere to and foster in my buddies, is excarly what you describe the Cubans do, except with 2 guns, Being dirt poor and starving doesnt suddenly make it possible to buddy dive correctly, All that is necessary is the will. Comunicate with your partner before and after. Each dive, After a while it cam literally be. A mutal glance at the surface, Dont dive if your partner is distracted, dont be distracted when hes under. People in the US do dive like this, the reaponsible ones. Most of the guys I dive with are not noobs by any stretch, The fact , I take pleasure in having a first row experience when a pal lands a nice fish, or retrieve an otherwise lost fish, is what to me its all about. To some proving they have the biggest balls or land the biggest fish is what get them off, I like comming home to my kid.


    I am no Cameron and dont claim to be, but I can asure you, diving as a team, when done properly is more productive for a multitude of reasons, And when the inevitable happens , Hopefully you or your buddy will be prepared . We dive as buddy teams and never have a problem, Last year. We got wahoo 70+ lbs, Grouper 50+. Cobia 60+ . Not in some far off island, and not some fluke when diving the reef alone. A good portion of those fish were close calls where a second. Shot made the diffrence. Its your choice, No one is forcing you, make it at your owm perril.


    I am thankfull for all my buddies amd the comminuty in general. I am also sick of hearing about tragic losses that could be avioded by more people chossing to hunt as teams.

  • If im diving with someone that is always distracted, I mostly follow them around, rather than risk us getting separated. before I dive, I get their attention and ask them to please watch my back, When surfacing im looking for eye contact, If the are in tunnel vision mode, I give them an earfull, Literally every dive, fish or no fish. After awhile of you being exactly at the spot they surface, EVERY time, and being nagged not to wander off. Most people get with the program. The ones that don't often it only takes a frank conversation back ot the boat. It goes something like this, " Listen man, I didnt ask you to watch my back as a joke, it means be there when I surface, I have a kid, I wont. Dive unless you do your part, thats the deal". At time i feel nagging and inflexible but the alternative is unacceptable to me. I have an probably will dive alone, On those ocassions its a very last ditch decission and I think of incidents like this the whole time

  • Well you know me JC, fairly obtuse. I dove with at least some of your former dive buddies; Rolo, Emil, Gerald they don't dive the way you describe. That puts you in the minority as far as your expectations of how things are going to be done.


    I have my own diving style and my instincts take me where perhaps other's won't. I don't expect anyone to drop what they're doing and adjust to my diving. Nor would I do it for someone else.


    Asking for a spot during a particularly challenging dive like an extraction is a different story. It's an isolated occurrence not a day long affair. If you feel you need a spot all day long then IMO you're out of your element. The whole idea of diving is to be relaxed, comfortable and aware. Not push to where you feel at risk every time.


    Blackout doesn't creep up on you out of nowhere. I'm tired of hearing this misconception. Blackout happens when you **** up. Don't **** up.


    Cubans employing the cordelero technique are not doing it because they can't afford a 2nd gun. Get your information straight. The ones I knew and respect dive in such hard conditions that would preclude %99 of American "spearos" from ever taking up the activity.

  • Dan, don't get me wrong, there is a unique rush about diving alone that I relish and no doubt enjoy. I also agree with most of your assertions , however, hearing about dozens amd dozens of needless deaths over the years, has made me realize, as much as I would like to be Im not a fish. The sea is a cruel unforgiving misstres . Something. As basic as the redundancy of an extra set of eyes, hands, lungs to slightly increase the safety margin is what we need to preach.


    Yes our safety has evolved over time. Now its more imperative than ever that we focus on ways to avoid our loved ones getting that call. Is it more effort, yes, if implemented correctly it can also be more productive.


    The first thing I do when I want to dive, is call my buddies, who I call mostly has to do , with who is always there when Im surfacing.


    Perhaps a thread titled " Reasons I decided to buddy dive" would be a good idea,. Thats all im really trying to get at. Stay safe yall

  • It's too hard pulling the anchor and trying to drive the boat in choppy seas, close to the reef… alone? :laughing:


    Exactly:)). Take that one step farther once you are out there together, why on earth separate??? Given the possibilty of being aboe to save eachothers skin should the worst happen?


    Reason #2.
    -When my buddy shots a fish, If im next to him, I can shoot the bigger fish that comes in to investigate. Happens all the time on my boat. Being. 20 yards away isnt. nearly as effective .

  • Interesting and revealing thread in lots of diverse ways.


    Maybe not good - but for me, since I started in the 40's, spear fishing is naturally a solo sport


    You can only rely on yourself


    Having said that - frig the watch (except like Don to tell when it's lunch time) only safe way to dive is know yourself, dive within your limit, and listen to your body.


    To me these course only teach you to dive deeper and longer.


    Is that what our sport is about?


    Not IMHO.


    Just saying

    Edited once, last by Oscar ().

  • ^^^^ This.


    Maybe because I'm old too, and never waited for a swimming partner to swim the 1/2 mile stretch across the lake I grew up on, to get to the Girl Scout Camp....Alone:thumbsup2:


    I dove just about every day when I lived in Laguna Beach Ca, before I was a dad. I'd call one or two friends, but 75% of the time it was just me and Mother Ocean for 30 years in local waters, same applies today, except for boat trips. Other times I dove alone because of greed, or risk of blowing up a small local spot when someone tells just one friend.:rolleyes1: Yes, I have blacked out alone, and was able (thank god) to unlatch my belt and drop my gun before waking up on the surface 25 years ago ....I'm no poster child for safe diving, and that was greed again for a big fish and a flecken trophy.


    Now back to the vid of Ben. With all due respect to him, as he is not here to comment:
    Long before I spent money on a real nice gun, GoPro, computer, or Freediving class, I would learn to be a skindiver, and work on the basics. Fluidity in the water, a decent surface dive, energy conservation, relaxation, Fin swimming. Sorry but that vid is a poster child ad for how not to dive. (Buddy diver was a rockstar)


    Cheers, Don

    "Great mother ocean brought forth all life, it is my eternal home'' Don Berry from Blue Water Hunters.


    Spearfishing Store the freediving and spearfishing equipment specialists.

    Edited 3 times, last by Don Paul ().

  • Sorry but that vid is a poster child ad for how not to dive. (Buddy diver was a rockstar)


    Cheers, Don


    Yep. And in most cases, there is one way to do it right. But there's LOTS of ways to do it wrong. Like I always preach to our staff here….and my kids for that matter….you learn more through failure than success. Knowing what doesn't work is just as important as knowing what does work.


  • Spot on. I'll do shore dives alone but only because it's relatively shallow and I usually just do them to explore new areas. Still take it nice and easy. Don't know the diver in the video but apparently everyone else does. Leading me to believe he's been around and might be considered experienced. Doesn't seem that way from this video. He's damn lucky to have had his partner alongside him

    Brad


  • Having said that - frig the watch (except like Don to tell when it's lunch time) only safe way to dive is know yourself, dive within your limit, and listen to your body.


    To me these course only teach you to dive deeper and longer.


    The problem is that your limits can change for many reasons. Not enough sleep, a slight cold etc. There is no way to know your exact limit. With years of practice you will obviously get better at reading your body and this is often one of the reasons why older spearos end up being better.


    The courses do not teach you to dive deeper and longer. This is a terrible misconception. Do some people advertise them that way? Yes. Do a lot of people take them for that reason? Absolutely. Are those the highlights that many report? Yes.


    But that is not the emphasis of the courses. The courses stress SAFETY and proper technique. If you take a gun out of their hands, teach proper entry and finning, and remove all distractions a novice diver will dive deeper.


    It's the same as saying a gun is dangerous. A gun sitting in a box will never hurt someone. Put it in the wrong hands and it can be deadly. It's not the guns fault, it's the user. If people choose ignore half of the things they learn in a course and just try to dive deep then yes they can get hurt but there are reasons there are very few deaths in organized free diving events (with the proper safety).


    Ben did not black out because he took the course. He blacked out because he made a mistake (more than one) and was not using good technique. I don't know who the other diver was but I'm guessing he has taken a course and thats a big part of why Ben is still alive.


    Ben's is not the only life that has been saved because a diver had taken one of these courses. And honestly I have never heard anyone say "he" died because he took a free diving course.

  • First of all, I'm glad that Ben made it. :)


    Second: I see very poor technique. Specially when ascending. All those bubbles! You're supposed to inhale the spare air that is in your mask when it expands. It helps A LOT.


    Third: FOR ME a dive computer is very important. Once you start diving to certain depths, you are exposed to bends. I remeber like 15 years ago when I was stronger and didin't had a watch, to feel "weird" afer a deep diving day. It never happened again when I started to respect the double surface time rule. But I see too often newbies buyong dive computers as a part of their "essential" gear...


    Fourth: I agree that freediving courses are taking inexperienced people to depts they should't be diving. Yes, they emphasize on safety, but human mind sometimes hears blah, blah, blah to things that are not your priority at that moment. I know A LOT of spearos that take the course because "they want to dive deep". One thing is diving to a certain point and then surface than diving many times during the day and suddenly see a cubera that shows up 10 feet away than your speargun reach and you wait those few seconds to make him come closer. Or that grouper that is 15 feet deeper than your deepest comfortable diving depth... It takes cold blod to let them go. And it comes with time and experience.


    Fifth: Buddy sistem is nice, but you can't rely in anyone. Period. I always tell my kids: you have to wach to each other, but the one that is diving must behave as he's alone. There are many things that can happen to the "surface buddy" that can end up in a tragedy; a wahoo swims by, water enters his mask/snorkel, a leg cramp, jellyfish, etc. It takes just few seconds between life or death.

    Marco Melis

    A bad day fishing is ALWAYS better than a good day at work.

  • To me the idea of deferring to a watch to tell me when to do things in freedive spearifshing is absurd. My body performs differently on different days and my job is to be in tune with it. I don't care what programming they put into the watch, it can't replace my brain which constantly takes stock of my actual physical condition. I know it's different for scuba divers, they're dependent on gauges and calculations. But I prefer freediving. Maybe I'm not such a good diver as Marco so my surface intervals are naturally longer/adequate in duration, to not experience anything weirder than just being tired.

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