Enclosed track speargun

    I have wanted an enclosed track rear handle pipe gun for years.
    I don't care if it were teak, alum. or carbon fiber
    I like a pipe gun better for where, what and how I spear.
    The problem is that such a gun does not exist YET, as far as I know.
    I do not have a shop or thousands of dollars of tooling and am happy with many guns like RA / Aimright and others EXCEPT that they ARE NOT enclosed track.
    I don't want to reinvent a gun, just have a RA or Aimrite gun WITH an enclosed track
    Soooooo, I got this idea and wrote to Tin Man.


    hau quote --
    "Another way to skin the cat"
    Jeff--If you ever get tired of answering my questions please just say so as I will fully understand.
    As you know I want an enclosed track rear grip gun, which doesn't exist YET.
    Soooooo:
    1. Why not take an existing CF barreled gun like RA, putting a shaft in the gun, then wrapping the barrel/shaft with a CF sleeve or two, after setting remove the shaft/dummy shaft and cutting a groove into the top for the shark fins?
    Thank you --end quote


    Originally Posted by Tin Man
    You might have something there! On the plus side, it would be easy to do, and guaranteed to be compatible with existing handles and muzzles from RA, or whoever.


    The only potential downside, is that the carbon fiber sticking up might be a little more fragile than with my design, where the track is supported from the sides. But CF is pretty strong, so as long as two or more layers were applied, it might hold up. It might have to be vacuum bagged to get the CF to match the contours at the top of the barrel though.


    I just bought an el-cheapo vacuum pump that I have been meaning to try. As soon as I get my current gun finished, I'll play around with some scraps and see what I can do.


    You might have something there. ---end of quote



    hau quote--
    Thank you.
    1.Agreed to all you say.
    2. I'm sure it would be more fragile when the shaft is OUT of the gun.
    3. This approach to getting an enclosed track gun could even be used on almost any existing wood gun like a Riffe Standard, Comp, etc and the CF or kevlar sleeve would act to bullet proof any existing gun.
    4. Do you have a good sourse for CF or kevlar sleeves that you would be willing to share with me?
    Thank you for your consultation


    Tin Man quote--
    I get most of my CF stuff from www.sollercomposites.com, and they have colored kevlar blends as well. If you need fabric in larger pieces, I have gotten it from www.jamestowndistributors.com. I have also found that www.aircraftspruce.com has a lot of good stuff.--end quote


    I'm asking for any constructive suggestions or opinions from anyone about my idea of an easy way to make an enclosed track gun.
    What do you guys think of this idea?
    Thanks in advance :toast:


    _____

    I was thinking about something like this. Two sleeves around a delrin core. Set that on top of the existing track, and wrap two sleeves around the whole thing. Put heat shrink tubing around the outside to snug it all down, and then fill the void space with epoxy / fiber. It will add some weight, but Hau says his gun floats now, so maybe it would end up alright.


    When cured, cut off the top and cut the track to suit either 5/16" 0r 9/32" shaft.


    Edit - The shaft groove would have to be cut a little lower, to match the barrel's original track height.

    Maybe you could use a regular barrel without a rail and build the rail\enclosed track out of the CF to match the handle so you don't have to cut the shaft groove down to the original size and have the CF around the shaft not just the sides....would be stronger? Just an idea....:)

    Quote from psychobilly

    Maybe you could use a regular barrel without a rail and build the rail\enclosed track out of the CF to match the handle so you don't have to cut the shaft groove down to the original size and have the CF around the shaft not just the sides....would be stronger? Just an idea....:)


    This is what I was thinking also.

    I don't think that an epoxy track will stay attached to an aluminum barrel because aluminum grows a lot with temperature, and epoxy almost nothing.


    So we need to stick our track to a CF tube. If we want to use standard components, like handles and muzzles, then we need a CF tube with the proper ID. I think that you will find that you almost have to start out with an RA barrel, as the tube dimensions are not standard for typical CF tubes.


    Something built around a typical euro barrel size of 28 mm might work, but I don't know what metric sizes the CF tubes are easily available in.


    "IF" a long section of CF / Epoxy track could be cast, then it would probably be easy to grind the track down on an RA tube, stick on the rough cut track, and then make a final pass to cut the track to the proper diameter and height.

    One of my buddies(Mario) that works out of the same workshop did something similar to this using a fiber-wound epoxy tubing for the enclosed track. Here's a thread on it - the gun looks big, but he added 2 side ballast tubes which are not necessary if you want a traditional euro shape.
    http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=36805



    While it's fun to tinker, I don't see why you don't just fashion a wooden barrel and attach it to a RA handle? I have a couple home made wooden barrels with OD just slightly larger than a railgun. It would be a simple matter to make these barrels a 1/4" taller and make the track enclosed. I just never bothered to go enclosed since they seem to shoot well on their own. But it's very easy to do...


    Out of coincidence, both my wooden euros use Beuchat handles, one Marlin & one Mundial. Some friends have made them using a wide variety of other euro handles (i.e. sporasub, RA, omer, etc). Likewise, I have a Totemsub Tahiti-Lthat uses a Demka handle with a wooden barrel. They work well, shoot quiet, and look great.

    Tin Man---sic drawings. :thumbsup2:
    Perfect mechanical of what the barrel cross section would look like.:)
    AND, with the enclosed track on top of the barrel like your drawings, the bands would not be piled up on top of the barrel affecting the target view.


    Sooooo----:idea2:
    1.lets get someone to cast these barrels.
    2. Put one of your muzzles on each barrel
    3. Mount up a very low height profile mech at the desired gun length.
    4. Use your trigger guard and grip tang assembly
    5. Cut the back of the barrel off behind the trigger anywhere the customer wants, (Euro, Euro X, etc)
    6. Include the Shape Lock with each gun to perfectly fit every new owners hand.


    What do you guys think?

    SPEARFISHING and RECREATIONAL FISHING NEEDS THE NRA
    Spearfishing Store

    Edited 2 times, last by hau ().

    Spearos---what do you think that a CF gun like this with a CF enclosed track, SS mech in either Euro, Euro X length WITH custom grip would easily sell for?
    (For reference: RA CF starts at $470. Rabitech CF starts at $453. Aimrite CF starts at $380.)


    Thanks

    SPEARFISHING and RECREATIONAL FISHING NEEDS THE NRA
    Spearfishing Store

    Edited once, last by hau ().

    Even if I think that the idea is great, I don't see the needing of an enclosed track in a two bands speargun.


    Wasn't that intended to avoid shaft woobling in very powerfull spearguns?


    Maybe I'm wrong...

    Marco Melis

    A bad day fishing is ALWAYS better than a good day at work.

    If I understand right, what hau really wants is a one piece carbon fiber gun with an enclosed track but with a round barrel instead of the more traditional square\rounded edges, with a ''modified'' mech(neptonics\alexander\kitto) to fit inside the round barrel akin to what tin man is building now but looking like a regular pipe gun hence the round barrel. If that's the case I think it would be better to just cast the barrel the same way tin man did for his hybrid just the right size to fit the components directly into the barrel. Such a gun would probably sell for more than a comparable carbon pipe gun.



    Then again I might be wrong......:)

    I think that I overlooked the simplest solution.


    Take a stick of G10 epoxy laminate like I used on my hybrid, and cut a track through it. Then concave the bottom to the right radius, and stick it to your CF barrel of choice after grinding off the molded in rail. Round the top edges to suit your taste. Done.


    Eh?



    Edited once, last by Guest ().


    Looks like a quick simple solution. It'd probably work better with just straight CF tubing - no worries about griding the rail funny and compromising structural integrity. If you don't mind me asking, where do you source your G10 from?



    As I mentioned above, I don't see why the wooden barrel route wouldn't work well... :confused1:


    And in the big picture (& to echo Marco's sentiments)... I'm not sure what Hau is specifically trying to accomplish by this other than the novelty of it. Mario (in the link above) successfully enclosed a track on his euro, but he also added ballast... so potentially overpowering it would be mitigated by the extra mass.

    i like the idea of having a cleaner top to the gun and the enclosed track oes that....it has too keep the shot straighter, even if only a miniscule amount, as well.



    I have a wooden euro, it is a pipe gun shape and it has a beuchat mundial handle and it is a great gun... I use it with one 20 mm band and it can hit a fishes eye at 15 ft, well I cant always but the gun could ;) , but the gun is thicker and heavier than my RA and subsequently harder to move underwater...


    it still tracks well, but not as well as the RA

    i like to spear fish


    Did you ever convert that Tito gun to an open muzzle?

    Quote from fuzz

    Looks like a quick simple solution. It'd probably work better with just straight CF tubing .


    I would agree, IF you could find CF tubing that would fit typical RA or other existing handles and muzzles. If you go with standard sized tubing, then you have to custom make everthing else. I guess you could just flip a RA barrel upside down, and leave the rail on the bottom.


    Quote from fuzz

    If you don't mind me asking, where do you source your G10 from?


    There are a couple of possibilities. K-mac Plastics has lots of pre-cut strips and bars, but their prices are high. http://k-mac-plastics.net/g10-fr4.htm


    Richard (3D Pro on SB) hooked me up with a piece to play with on my hybrid, so he might sell you some. There are some other places like Jamestown Distributors that have sheets, but then you have to cut it up, and that is not a trivial exercise with this material.


    Quote from fuzz

    As I mentioned above, I don't see why the wooden barrel route wouldn't work well.


    I think that as a stick of wood gets ever longer and skinnier, it gets harder to keep it straight, both during manufacturing, and from later warping. For a long skinny tube that may get abused on small boat dives, I think that carbon fiber is about as bullet proof a material as you can get.

    Quote from Tin Man

    I think that as a stick of wood gets ever longer and skinnier, it gets harder to keep it straight, both during manufacturing, and from later warping. For a long skinny tube that may get abused on small boat dives, I think that carbon fiber is about as bullet proof a material as you can get.


    I was thinking a thin wood jacket over a tube, similar to Chad's hot dog bun. The top could be left higher to make an enclosed track. :)
    http://spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=428044&postcount=27


    That way, you can use any cheapish euro with a decent trigger mech... and have the option of using the stock muzzle OR using the wood to cap a smaller gun barrel and cut band slots. ;)

    brothers----
    1. First, thank you all for taking so much time to help me get an enclosed track pipe gun.
    I really appreciate everyones time and effort. :toast:
    2. There have been some very good, positive and constructive ideas presented by everyone on this thread.
    Thank you


    3. As I mentioned before, I have no shop or thousands of dollars worth of machines to fabricate anything. All I have is an idea of an "enclosed track pipe gun" barrel. (if I did have a shop I'd be busy producing 20f lengths of CF enclosed track barrel tubing in reef, ocean blue, and other colors) to fit onto RA, Aimrite, Mako and others existing handles :) )
    The dream is to go to FF, buy an enclosed track CF RA barrel from Mike, come home, remove my existing CF rail barrel and install the new CF enclosed track barrel. :)
    That is the dream.
    Only detail is that an" enclosed track pipe gun" barrel does not exist :(
    But with all your help and ideas maybe it will not be long before an "enclosed track pipe gun" will exist :thumbsup2:
    Thank you all for helping me out

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