The Snorkel Controversy. Always in? or Out as we dive?

From a California spearfishing perspective - out. Simply no other option. The bubbles that will trickle out of the snorkel during the dive will scare fish away.

When I trained with PFI, they taught us to always spit it out because during blackout the body will reflexively shut off the airway (including closing the mouth) as a defense mechanism. Leaving the snorkel in negated that, and effectively created a straw into the lungs. Also, the recovery breathing on the surface was done with the mouth out of water, not with a snorkel. So why bother leaving it in? The arguments Rick listed on the side of spitting it out aren't even the right ones. If Rick is indeed an instructor, then I guess we could declare that "professional opinion is divided on the subject".

Some people (old people) have always just left it in, and they get stuck in their ways, so they make up all kind of excuses and anecdotal evidence as to why it's acceptable. Terry is a nice guy, but he's not the alpha and the omega. Just because there were less reported incidents of lung complications doesn't prove his point - he's leaving out important variables in the equation. There's been a huge influx of new people into the sport in recent years, and many of them aren't the natural freedivers that he and a lot of the die-hard old timers were. More freedivers, each with a higher average chance for blackouts, and thus more reported incidents of water intrusion. If he could scientifically demonstrate a CORRELATION between water intrusion and snorkel in/out, he'd have a lot more professional support on his side without having to resort to anecdote.

Also Rick, I'm not sure why you place such an emphasis with keeping your eye on the bottom. Buddy system? Sharks? Fish on the line?

Regardless of the reason, it seems like it might be a uniquely Florida perspective; if you are diving "deep" (a relative term), and you can see the bottom from the surface...then you're spoiled when it comes to your visibility.

Rydragyn, hunting from the surface is a common and preferred way for us spoiled tropical water divers. When I was introduced to spearfishing in Cuba, compared to which Florida has dirty water, I thought that's how it was done period.

I spit it out.

"The scenario presented in this reply post as the cause for a blackout is an over simplification of a complicated physiological event in which having or not a snorkel in the mouth is inconsequential."

Until you break the surface and start your recovery breathing! then it can be very seriously consequential and that is my point. On top of the complicated physiological event which is taking place you subscribe to blowing out your air through a snorkel before surfacing and Immediately taking breaths of air through literally a small straw so you can watch a fish, keep an eye on sharks etc, etc, some may go years doing this and be fine and others get in serious trouble very quickly. I feel the proper way to help combat the physiological events of freedive spearfishing is to teach people the safest ways to recover properly and one of those ways is never to keep a snorkel in your mouth at all times due to the reasons I have mentioned. My opinion.

Quote from Dan

Rydragyn, hunting from the surface is a common and preferred way for us spoiled tropical water divers. When I was introduced to spearfishing in Cuba, compared to which Florida has dirty water, I thought that's how it was done period.

Sounds like I'll have to visit Florida sometime...got to use those frequent flier miles for something.:thumbsup2:

When I hunt freshwater, I sometimes (but not always) hunt from the surface as well, but that's in quite shallow water with 10-20 foot of viz. In those circumstances, I still spit the snorkel out, and for good reason. I'll spot a fish from the surface, inhale deeply, and almost in the same motion as the inhalation, I'll spit the snorkel out, and dive. I have found that this rapid inhalation and submersion effectively creates a vacuum inside the snorkel that won't result in the loud roar of bubbles that scares the prey away. This is important because the prey is so close when I dive. At that point, it's a matter of a quiet duck dive and approaching parallel to the lateral line. It would be ideal to already be underwater and moving, but sometimes that just doesn't happen.

Eric Fattah's post which sums up it nicely

First of all, if you are on the edge of a blackout, there is NO WAY you would ever manage to 'clear the snorkel via displacement.' That is a technique which requires accurate timing, and an accurate estimate of when you are going to hit the surface. When ascending near a blackout, you have NO IDEA where the surface is, or when you will hit it. Often your last clear thought is at 10-15m deep. There is thus no hope to clear the snorkel by any method if you are close to a blackout.

If you clear the snorkel by blasting, you're finished as well. I have done that and blacked out.

When surfacing near the edge of a blackout, you should never ever stop kicking. Upon reaching the surface you should keep kicking as hard as you can, and tread water with your arms as well. This keeps the blood pressure in your head elevated. I discovered this after years of pushing my limit. If I surface and stop kicking, my vision starts disappearing. If I start kicking the pressure wave instantly hits my head and my vision clears.

The idea that by keeping your snorkel in will allow you to STOP kicking as you surface will just worsen the chance of a blackout...

AND THEN TRUX LAST POST

Rick, you are right that as far as we ignore the safety risks, both ways have their advantages. However, I do not quite understand what "water tight proof" you need to realize that if you black out with a snorkel in the mouth, your chances to survive abruptly drop? Even if there is a laryngospasm at the beginning that prevents the water entering the lungs directly, you probably know that the laryngospasm releases anyway after a while - either when the blackout is too long, or when you wake. In both cases, having water in the mouth will rather likely have fatal consequences. Are you denying that, or are you also one of those thinking he is in perfect control and can never black out?

What I want to know is how many of you guys have made it through a big shore break...
popped up on the back of the crest, put the snorkel in you mouth and ..... nada.

My best friend.... a 6' 9' Olympic water polo star had stuffed my snorkel tip with dog shite :@:@:crazy:

And yes I did get even, but ever since that day I dive with it out, put it back in just before the surface and clear by displacement. It has always worked for me and unless I do a real deep one, then I leave it out, hook breathe and keep kicking for blood flow and pressure.

Cheers, Don

Quote from ricksafer

Just a point I would like to make:D

Neither now nor ever before my postings in this Forums had any intention but to share, exchange, comprehend etc, different points of view and discern what's going on in others people's opinions;)

Having said this, there's really no better way for each one but to do, in our diving exploits, what feels comfortable, right and logical as long as one's own safety, either in a real or imaginary way, is not compromised. Like the good old:"If it ain't broken..don't fix it!"
Looks that the "out" has more adepts than the "in". Both techniques seem to have accomplished just fine for their respective practitioners. Good!

I'll just keep my personal way of doing my diving. It has worked just fine for me as an individual as well as for the hundreds of people I had the opportunity to teach during my more than 40 years instructor life span.
It is also shared by MOST other spear fishermen (I guess they just don't post...)that I know, at least in my surrounding spearfishing realm. That's South Florida:thumbsup2:.

I also guess, like in most other things, there's always another side of the coin.:rolleyes1:
I also believe it has definitely been shown in these posts there's no "water tight proof" or "solid rock evidence". That either way of is neither better nor worse.

Having run out of explanations and personal opinions I now consider the particular theme exhausted at least for me.:boring1:
I'll just will keep enjoying your comments.
Thanks to all for your participation, which is in the end what mattersr to us all.:clap2:

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Good discussion, here's my take:

Before I opine, I must say that I don't have "an axe to grind" nor do I want to "beat around the bush". I like to "go with the flow". I know Rick and he's a "chip off the old block". Please, "don't have a cow", but I spit mine out. I see both points as I'm not "stubborn as a mule". However, let's not "make a mountain out of a molehill" as I'm just getting "my feet wet" on this thread.

I could be mistaken in my views as perhaps "the grass is always greener on the other side". I hope I did not "open a can of worms". Because "the name of the game" is to; "keep your head above water". Literally. We don't want to "bite the dust" or "push up daisies". We all love life and must "take time to smell the roses".

So in essence, "put that in your pipe and smoke it" and perhaps "when pigs fly", I may change my mind, as "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".:D

Tata!:D

:laughing:

:laughing3: CLASSIC ROLO

Quote from Don Paul

What I want to know is how many of you guys have made it through a big shore break...
popped up on the back of the crest, put the snorkel in you mouth and ..... nada.

My best friend.... a 6' 9' Olympic water polo star had stuffed my snorkel tip with dog shite :@:@:crazy:

And yes I did get even, but ever since that day I dive with it out, put it back in just before the surface and clear by displacement. It has always worked for me and unless I do a real deep one, then I leave it out, hook breathe and keep kicking for blood flow and pressure.

Cheers, Don

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I Use Same method Don Use but if is shallow like 20 to 30 feet I don't take it out...and in 20+ years in the water i never suffer a SWB..Not that I'm super man.. but I never push my air supply that far... diving even at greater depths..I'm not the fittest or the best spearo around but i know what my body can handle. Nor have never seen someone suffer a SWB. I have studied it. and i know the consequences. But if you push it no matter where your snorkel is the SWB is going to happen and there is where the Buddy system come in effect. The only thing that will save you.

I spit it out upon decent and I can always put it back in just before breaking the surface if I need to maintain eye contact with the bottom or can leave it out to rapidly inhale as I break the surface. An recently I heard that if you blackout with a snorkel in your mouth, when your body instinctively tries to take a breath you will automatically inhale water. A opposed to having it out and your mouth being closed and possibly buying you an extra couple of life saving precious seconds while you are pulled out. Just my take on the matter, not saying one way is better than the other.

Here's another question for the inners - how are you doing Frenzel when your mouth is open and full of water?

Quote from Ryddragyn

Here's another question for the inners - how are you doing Frenzel when your mouth is open and full of water?

good question- maybe they are just doing valsalva and not deep enough to worry about frenzel or hands free.

Out for me, for the same reasons stated by the others. For noise reduction when hunter fish like snapper here in NZ waters. Also for Samba or SWB as I feel strongly that the airway should be clear for when your brain comes around and tell your lungs to inhale, a snorkel full of water on the surface is the last thing you want in a situation like that. Finally to "flush" your lungs of CO2 after surfacing is a lot easier with snorkel out.

Maybe i'm confused..but i used Frenzel Maneuver all my life without taking the snorkel out. And i don't get the part of water in your mouth at all. I can block the water with my tongue so the mouth is sealed. I don't pinch my nose at all.. So both hands are free. And i have dove 70, 80+ feet and i consider that a good depth. I don't have to push under that unless i really have to. Lately in my life at those depths i will take the snorkel out and put it in as i get to the surface to clear by displacement. but i don't do it all the time. This is a good thread and i can see different opinions, And i have tried both and i really used both depending on the situations. But probably my experience have taught me things that don't apply to everyone else. Still the mouth full of water part i never heard before and i don't understand t. because i can't visualize a spearo that let water in his mouth underwater. . Not even when you get to the surface.I do understand the tube full of water but not the mouth. I clear my lungs on the way up ready for recovery breathing and the tube will be clear by displacement before getting to the surface. If i'm pushing bottom time then i take the tube out for recovery breathing. Quickest way..but i don't push my bottom time unless is really necessary. Maybe i got lost in all the info and i miss something and got me a little confused. So if you guys please guys explain will like to hear opinions so i can compare of what i already know. Just curious in opinions with Valsalva and Frenzel. They both used in Scuba and Snorkeling. They are not new when it comes to underwater and not specific to any of the disciplines. Will like to hear the old schoolers that know both ways to elaborate cause i thought i covered both ways there.
Sorry fo rthe paragraph
Cheers Core

Core,
For some of less talented and anatomically impaired ( me!!!) equalizing hands-free with Frenzel or any technique is complicated. With a snorkel in my mouth; I can't use my tongue like a piston and push air from the roof of my mouth to get the equalization.I have to do weird jaw gyrations, grouper calls, you name it, and then, maybe, it works. Consider your self lucky that it isn't so difficult for you! I am envious.